Another b.goforth question.

Discussion in 'The Ask the Pros & What's It Worth? Forum' started by deadin, Dec 11, 2009.

  1. deadin

    deadin Well-Known Member

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    1,157
    Bill,
    Can you give me an estimate on manufacture date on this H&R 2" snub?
    Serial #182,836 found on left frame under grip and on bottom of butt.
    836 on rear of cylinder.
    Rib marked "H&R Arms Co. Worcester, Mass. U.S.A." (two lines)
    Side of barrel: 32 CAL. S.&W. CTGE.

    I need to know if this is a C&R or Antique.

    Thanks,

    Dean

    [​IMG]
  2. b.goforth

    b.goforth New Member

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    Location:
    houston, tx
    dean
    the 2 inch barrels on any of the small frame hammerless model are kinda of rare so there fore information on them is limited. they were serial numbered in the same series as the regular hammerless model. serial number 182836 falls into the C&R catagory manufactured about 1910 to 1913. it can be asummed that any H&R with a six digit serial number falls into this class as H&R revolvers maunfactured before 1899 will have only 5 digit numbers or numbers with a letter code and 5 digits.

    H&R HAMMERLESS SECOND MODEL SMALL FRAME TOP BREAK
    (SMOKELESS POWDER)-----------------------------------------------1905-1941
    Small Frame Double Action Hammerless Top Break revolver with double top post barrel latch; caliber and cylinder capacity, 32 S&W (5 rounds), 22 Rimfire (7 rounds); finish is nickel or blue (optional); grips are hard rubber with a target logo at the top; standard barrel length is 3 ΒΌ inch, with 2, 4, 5 and 6 inch optional; rebounding hammer; automatic cylinder stop, caliber marking on left side of barrel.
    CALIBER MARKINGS ON LEFT SIDE OF BARREL DESIGNED FOR SMOKELESS POWDER CARTRIDGE PRESSURES ONLY
    First Variation, patent dates 5-14-89, 4-2-95, 4-7-96, serial number range 90000*-100000* (estimate)-----------------------------------------1905-1906
    Second Variation, patent dates 4-2-95, 4-7-96 serial number range 100000*-120000* (estimate)-----------------------------1907-1909
    Third Variation, patent date 10-8-95, serial number range 120000*-180000* (estimate)---------------------1910-1913
    Fourth Variation no patent dates small font use for company name. serial number range 180000*-190000*(estimate)-------------1914-only
    Fifth variation, large font used in company name and state not spelled out (MASS), serial number range 190000*-200000* (estimate)----1915-only
    Sixth Variation, state name in address spelled out (MASSACHUSETTS) serial number range 200000*-220000* (estimate)----------------1916-1924
    Seventh Variation, new grip frame it is now same width as rest of frame no step down for grips, serial number range unknown------------1925-1942
    After 1930 listed in catalogs as: HAMMERLESS No. 40 TOP BREAK 22 Rimfire7 shot and HAMMERLESS No. 45 TOP BREAK 32 S&W 5 shot
    VALUE: 100%=$265 60%=$75 Add 10% premium for blue finish; 20% premium 4”, 5” or 6” barrel; 20% premium for 22 rimfire caliber

    bill
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2009
  3. deadin

    deadin Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Bill,
    From your listing I would say it is a Fourth Variation as there are no patent dates and the barrel rib markings are in a small font.
    In breaking it down for cleaning and replacing a broken trigger return spring, I found more parts with full or partial serial numbers. I didn't realize that they put that much effort into these little guys.
    Glad to hear that the 2 inchers are sort of scarce. I took this one in as a "kicker" on a trade. Guess I did better than I thought.;)
    The guy I got it from said it was his grandmothers "purse" gun.

    Dean
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2009
  4. Jim Hauff

    Jim Hauff New Member

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    deadin,
    Your piece is a perfect match for an example of this variation from my collection, except mine is in blue finish and is s/n 181151, and which Bill has ID'ed as a 4th Variation. One of the characteristics: the front sight blade is very close to the muzzle on these earlier ones, last (5th Var.) front sights are set back from the muzzle about 3/8th of an inch and the caliber marking is a smaller "font". From my experience collecting H&R firearms over the past 15 years or so, these pieces are VERY Scarce, I only have five examples in my collection. To a collector, these have as much value as the small frame PREMIER model bicycles.
    One question for you: remove the cylinder and check the bottom of the top strap for the full serial number and let us know if there is an 'H' stamped somewhere on that underside. Thanks.
  5. deadin

    deadin Well-Known Member

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    Jim,
    Yes there is. It's on the bottom right forward part of the top strap. (Serial is on the left.)
    Any idea what it means?

    Dean

    If you want detailed pictures of any of this, let me kknow what you want and I will provide them.

    Another question.... What a H&R USRA Single Shot going for these days? I see where one went begging on GB with an asking price of $699.
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2009
  6. Jim Hauff

    Jim Hauff New Member

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    deadin,
    The 'H' apparently, and from my experience, was only stamped on the small frame hammerless guns. I've not seen it on any of the other small frame revolvers H&R made.
    USRAs are in a fickle pricing state over the past two years. Previously, the bare minimum I saw any selling for (or was able to purchase one) was in the $500 range for one in fair condition and topping out around $1400 for excellent condition. Now-a-days, they seem to top out around $1000 and I, as you mentioned, have seen them unsold at the 600 dollar mark. There are only around 3200 of these in the market place, so they seem to migrate between serious collectors on a pretty regular basis. A few years ago I purchased the highest known serial numbered piece, 3326, from another collector and was happy to get it for $1100. From what I've seen lately, I'm not sure where that one would fall.
  7. Old Gun Guy

    Old Gun Guy Member

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    I have a small-frame hammerless H&R .32 S&W. It is a second model, and I believe the fourth variation, serial # 204257. The pictures aren't too clear because my camera is on its last leg. The top of the barrel is all small font, with no patent dates. All numbers match, and there is a pronounced "H" under the top strap that I tried to get a picture of, but failed. Is this one of the scarce ones?
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Old Gun Guy
  8. b.goforth

    b.goforth New Member

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    Location:
    houston, tx
    except for being blue with mother of pearl grips this appears to be standard production manufactured between about 1916 and 1924.

    i believe what jim was talking about was the single shot U.S.R.A. model and not the standard 32 caliber hammerless models.

    bill
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