Another bound book question

Discussion in 'Curio & Relics Forum' started by nipster, Jun 16, 2012.

  1. nipster

    nipster New Member

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    I have some questions, as I am very new to the C&R world.

    1. do I have to record C&R "eligible" items in my bound book which I have obtained from retail means (IE: a 1930's era S&W revolver bought from a gun shop) which a form 4473 was completed, and my C&R FFL was not used at all as part of the transaction?

    2. As a C&R, do we have the ability to ship C&R firearms (handguns AND long guns) through the USPS? I realize it has to be disclosed and there is a form a the post office to fill out. But there is some confusion as to whether or not FFL03's can ship through USPS or if it's just FFL01's.

    3. A followup to question 1. If ALL C&R eligible items have to be recoded in the bound book, items which I have obtained through the retail channel, I have receipts, but not FFL numbers of the gun stores I bought them from. Will just name and address suffice? Or will I have to go back and get their FFL number to record in my bound book?

    Thanks for the info in advance.
  2. Hammerslagger

    Hammerslagger New Member

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    I was never a collector, and have not been a FFL-01 in many years.

    I would go to the ATF website to find definitive answers to my questions, rather than seek it at forums.

    I have the experience (more than once) of ATF agents not knowing the correct answer to a question on a technical issue. It is good advice "to have it in writing from the ATF" before you do, or fail to do, something.
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2012
  3. FlashBang

    FlashBang Member

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    1= you only record firearms that were purchased using your 03 FFL. You do not record anything you owned prior to getting your 03 FFL. If you buy other firearms that are not C&R you do not need to record them in the Bound Book. This includes antiques as well.

    2= As an FFL holder you can ship via USPS. However, handguns MUST ship by at least 2 day delivery. Any 03 FFL that I know, including myself, uses UPS to ship firearms. Handguns go 2 day and long guns can go ground. USPS is to much of a pain in the rear to jump through all their hoops.

    3= See answer #1. 01 FFL's will give/send you a copy of their FFL for entry into your Bound Book if you request it. Otherwise, you have the option of entering the name and address of who/where the firearm was purchased from.

    You may find a private seller who does not want to give you a bill of sale or their personal information, and this type of sale is perfectly legal in most States. In these cases you are doing a private purchase and not using your 03 FFL and therefor do not need to enter it in your Bound Book. If you sell it later you do not need to record the sale either. Private sales have to follow ATF and State laws.

    If you are selling a firearm that you purchased using your 03 FFL, you MUST enter the sale and enter the information of who/where it went.

    Hope this helps you.
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2012
  4. Jim K

    Jim K New Member

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    Wrong on using USPS. ONLY FFL dealers and manufacturers (FFL 01 and 02) may ship handguns via USPS (U.S. Mail); collectors (FFL 03) may not. Check with your local postmaster.

    This seems to be more the result of the USPS not wanting to update their regulations to include FFL 03 than of any specific "anti-collector" attitude, but that is the way it is.

    As to whether to enter information in the book for purchases not using the 03 FFL. Just understand the name of the game is tracing. If you use your license, then the trace is to the license, which means to the bound book. If you buy the gun on a 4473 then the trace is to you, not to the license. There is no requirement that you use the license when buying a firearm just because it is a C&R, but it is prohibited to use the C&R license if the item is not a C&R.

    Jim
  5. pickenup

    pickenup New Member

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    Concerning #1, Jim has it. The only ones you need to list, are the ones that you USE the C&R license to obtain. You did not use your C&R to obtain the ones you already have, or any bought through regular channels.

    The post office is pretty specific about C&R
    Firearm mailability from the USPS DMM

    Here is the link...the text below is only PART of the rules.
    http://pe.usps.com/text/DMM300/601.htm#1198527
    Click on.......12.0 Other Restricted and Nonmailable Matter
    to read the rest,


    12.1 Firearms
    12.1.1 Definitions

    f. Federal Firearms Licensee (FFL) manufacturer, dealer, or importer of firearms means a manufacturer, dealer, or importer duly licensed by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) under Chapter 44, Title 18, United States Code (U.S.C.).

    g. Curio and relic collector means an individual licensed by ATF to transfer or receive only those firearms defined as curios or relics by ATF under Title 27, Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), section 478.11.

    h. Antique firearm means any muzzle loading rifle/shotgun/pistol, which is designed to use black powder or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition (except those that incorporate a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof); or any firearm (including those with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured on or before 1898, or any replica thereof, if such replica:

    12.1.2 Handguns

    Handguns and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person are nonmailable unless mailed between the parties listed in 12.1.3 and 12.1.5 after the filing of an affidavit or statement required by 12.1.4 and 12.1.6, and are subject to the following:

    a. Firearms meeting the definition of a handgun under 12.1.1b, and the definition of curios or relics under 27 CFR 478.11 may be mailed between curio and relic collectors only when those firearms also meet the definition of an antique firearm under 12.1.1h.

    b. Firearms meeting the definition of a handgun under 12.1.1b which are certified by the curator of a municipal, state, or federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest may be accepted for mailing without regard to 12.1.3 through 12.1.6.
  6. pickenup

    pickenup New Member

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    Sorry Jim, have to disagree here.

    Here is another quote from the USPS DMM

    12.3 Legal Opinions on Mailing Firearms

    Postmasters are not authorized to give opinions on the legality of any shipment of firearms. Further advice and ATF contact information is available at http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/.
  7. deadin

    deadin Well-Known Member

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    Here we go down this road again.........

    The following is directly from 27CFR 478.125(f)

    Note the bold underline. It says "Each shall be entered". Not Just those that the license was used on". There is no place in the regulations that allow a Licensed Collector to split C&R's out depending on how they were acquired.


    NOTE: Paragraph (g) has to do with conditions under which the entry into the bound book may be delayed for up to 7 days.
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2012
  8. pickenup

    pickenup New Member

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    There is also nothing that says that a C&R holder can not buy a firearm through regular channels. (a 4473)
    It is a non law by omission.

    I went through this when I had my regular FFL. A friend who also had an FFL thought that EVERY firearm you obtained must be listed in your bound book. No matter how you obtained it. I said you can buy personal firearms through regular channels, and not list it in the book.

    I contacted the BATF back then. He said there was no law that said I was REQUIRED to list any firearm that I bought, if I did not use my FFL to acquire it. A non law by omission.

    I asked him if it was kind of the same thing as people in Vermont being able to carry concealed without a permit, because there is no law against it, and no law requiring any permit. A non law by omission. He said.....exactly.

    Unless the BATF has changed their ruling in the last 25 years. (since I gave up my FFL)

    As a side note.
    The agent did NOT want to give out this information. I had to be specific in my questioning. The same as when I contacted them on another matter. Whether a couple can have a firearm in the house, if one of them is a felon, as long as the felon DID NOT have access to it. (as in locked in a safe that he/she could not open) (again) He reluctantly said that indeed you COULD have a firearm in the same house as a felon lived in, if it was kept under these conditions. But he STRONGLY ADVISED against it.

    nipster,
    I would be interested in their reply if you were to contact them. On second thought, never mind. I will contact them next week sometime, and post the reply that I receive here.
  9. deadin

    deadin Well-Known Member

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    I would want to have this opinion in writing from the BATFE. The regulations say "Shall enter". Shall is a pretty strong word legal-wise and some prosecutor with narrow vision could make a case of it if they wanted to. It's pretty simple to just enter all C&R's and it serves several purposes. First off, it removes all chances of being made into a poster boy in some court case. Second if you decide to sell a C&R that isn't in your book, you will need to enter it at that time and third, It is great way of keeping track of what you have for insurance purposes.
    Finally, the "personal collection" mentioned in the regs are for FFL01's as the FFL03 is for a personal collection in the first place. (Or are you saying that there are two kinds of "personal collections"? One "personal and another "extra personal"?)

    Of course what one decides to do is up to the individual. Read the regs and determine what you can live with. I just don't believe in giving the enforcers any opportunities to give me grief.
  10. pickenup

    pickenup New Member

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    I received a reply to my inquiry, from BATF agent Bennett.

    After my introduction and explanation, these are the questions I asked.......

    Agent's answer;
    No, firearms acquired before he became a C&R holder do not have to be listed in the bound book.

    Agent's answer;
    No.

    Agent's answer;
    No.
    Only firearms acquired, by using his C&R license to acquire them, are required to be listed in the bound book.



    So there you have it, straight from the horses mouth. (so to speak) :D
  11. armenjs802

    armenjs802 New Member

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    Well, one of the few banned States in US, and for
    You may purchase a C&R rifles and the seller( private Person) say he has no FFL or C&R that is ok you need to include his name on your records. For the seller records, he or she needs the signed copy of your C&R.

    Now in Ca. you can't ship a handguns to a C&R holder must go to FFL1.
    just pay attention and read the codes under ATF you will be okay.
    funny thing last month they (she) paid me a visit, my wife said come back later afternoon, when his home. Never did.:D
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