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Believe It Or Not

Discussion in 'The VMBB True Story Tellers' started by Guest, Feb 26, 2003.

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    106RR196LIB
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 133
    (6/13/01 1:29:14 am)
    | Del All Believe It Or Not
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    I am sure An Thoi has been wondering what happened to the Vietnamese Naval Officers who abandoned their men.
    Why they're right here in the San Francisco Bay Area, many are in San Jose. Believe it or not, they are posing as heroes!

    On Veteran's Day, they marched in beautiful new white uniforms. The scene was so disgusting that the US Vietnam Vets refused to march in the parade this year. Many other Vietnamese Vets also declined to march.
    Since San Francisco and San Jose have their parades on different days, the Vietnamese Naval Officers actually march in both parades. Transportation is provided between cities.
    An Thoi should come to the bay area next Veterans Day to review the officers. He might recognize someone. He could at least give them the Hawaian Good Luck Sign. Mike H

    dreamcatcher27371
    Member
    Posts: 35
    (6/13/01 3:52:20 am)
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    You're correct. Toi has mentioned the same and of some of the slugs he's seen over the years. Many of them still use their influence over the other VNs. /larry/

    homer4
    Moderator
    Posts: 877
    (6/13/01 9:23:50 pm)
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    That's pathetic Mike...and as Hero's!!! Stupid Officials should have investigated them further...would hope that the local news stations and news papers will be alerted and hopefully they'll do their part and reveil this sacrilidge. That's what it is!

    Pathetic!

    But you know what...it's in keeping with the whole experience of the Nam...a noble Cause that was...but became twisted and ugly.
    ...and two hard boiled eggs.

    Edited by: homer4 at: 6/13/01 10:28:40 pm

    dap22
    Senior Chief Moderator II
    Posts: 710
    (6/14/01 8:06:34 am)
    | Del
    ezSupporter
    Re: Believe It Or Not
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    Homer.........it's the same officials or their friends and relatives who encouraged these "heroes" to come to this country in the first place. Welcome to America where graft and corruption is alive and well.
    I wonder if the former Vice President of Vietnam was marching as well........the flamboyant Nguyen Cao Ky.......who no doubt left Vietnam with a large stash of American greenbacks and was welcomed with open arms. Rat Bastids.

    dirty423
    Member
    Posts: 9
    (6/14/01 8:36:03 am)
    | Del
    ezSupporter
    Re: Believe It Or Not
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    One of the more infamous photos from Viet Nam was that of the chief of the white mice shooting a handcuffed prisoner in the head during Tet. That thoroughly disgusted me and my brothers, dishonorable pig. That lowlife SOB opened a pizza joint in Baltimore on government money and when it threatened to go under, Uncle fixed him up with another 'loan'.
    The point of the spear

    Misterstan
    Moderator
    Posts: 282
    (6/14/01 12:05:10 pm)
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    Dirty,

    Is this the scene you were describing?



    Stan Lambert
    St. Clair Shores, Michigan

    dirty423
    Member
    Posts: 11
    (6/14/01 2:42:37 pm)
    | Del
    ezSupporter
    Re: Believe It Or Not
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    The very one.
    Killing prisoners is not an option, they are soldiers and as such deserve respectful treatment. The villainous treatment by the North of our people is legend. Should we reward our allies for doing the same?
    The point of the spear

    LarryJK
    Senior Chief Moderator III
    Posts: 169
    (6/14/01 3:19:30 pm)
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    There was a little something about this guy the other night on TLC/History channel. The guy was an alcoholic. The documentary pointed out the fact that cases of beer were transported in his jeep...where ever he went!

    hansenjim
    Member
    Posts: 10
    (6/14/01 5:08:56 pm)
    | Del Re: Terrorist or POW?
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    Here's the scoop on the executioner:

    Nguyen Ngoc Loan, Major General [1930-1998] . Born in Hue to a middle-class family, he studied pharmacy at the University of Hue. He entered the Vietnamese National Army (at that time under French control) in 1951, and quickly entered an officer training school, where he was a classmate of Nguyen Cao Ky. He served briefly in Vietnam, then was sent to Morocco to be trained as a pilot. He returned to Vietnam in 1955, and for the next ten years served in the Vietnam Air Force (VNAF). At some point during this decade he went to the United States for further training, so by the time he became a prominent figure in the late 1960s, he spoke good English.
    Although his duties were increasingly administrative, with an emphasis on intelligence and security, he remained a pilot long enough to fly as wingman to his old friend Ky, by that time commander of the VNAF, in the FLAMING DART airstrikes against North Vietnam in February 1965. But when Ky emerged in June 1965 as the new head of the South Vietnamese government, he made Loan a colonel and gave him control of military intelligence and security. In April 1966 he was made, in addition, Director General of the National Police. He had enormous power. When Ky in 1967 consented to become Vice President, with Nguyen Van Thieu as President, one of the reasons Ky expected still to have a great deal of power was that he was counting on Loan's continued support. By that time Loan was a brigadier general.

    Here's the scoop on the guy being executed:

    He seems to have been a Viet Cong captain using the name of Bay Lop (see Time Magazine, Feb 15, 1993). Other names have also been given, Nguyen Tan Dat and Han Son. Bay Lop and Han Son look to me like the sort of aliases a VC officer would use for professional purposes; Nguyen Tan Dat looks like it might be a real name.

    What you may be missing is that to the executioner, this guy was nothing more than a terrorist. He executed a family including women and children that the executioner knew which is probably why the executioner did the deed himself.

    If somebody did that to my buddy, I'd at least want to do the same thing and hopefully would -- right or wrong.

    Also, I don't believe there is any evidence the executioner got the money for his pizza parlor to make a living from the US government.

    By the way, the guy that took the picutre and won a Pulitzer Prize for it regretted it because it ruined the Viets reputation. he thought the general was an honorable man. The photographer thought the guy was right for what he did and didn't realize the execution would be taken as a murder.

    I don't know whether executing terrorists in a state of martial law was unlawful under SVN law at the time or not. I suspect it was because the guy was never charged with anything.

    Edited by: dap22 at: 6/14/01 7:42:11 pm

    Misterstan
    Moderator
    Posts: 288
    (6/14/01 5:19:38 pm)
    | Del Re: Terrorist or POW?
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    Jim,

    Thanks for the scoop on the story behind the picture.

    Good to hear from you again.

    Stan Lambert
    St. Clair Shores, Michigan

    hansenjim
    Member
    Posts: 11
    (6/14/01 5:22:21 pm)
    | Del Re: Nguyen Cao Ky
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    Here the opinion of one historian who has studied Vietnam rather thoroughly:

    The last I heard he was running a liquor store in California. I don't get the impression that it is the sort of business a rich man would be running. Makes me doubt the rumors that were going around during the war, about all the money he was supposed to be salting away in foreign bank accounts.

    Further, the NV has stated that the SVN's gold treasury was was found intact by the NVA contrary to all the rumors that Thieu and other officials spirited it out of the country.

    hansenjim
    Member
    Posts: 14
    (6/14/01 6:06:10 pm)
    | Del Re: SVN gold
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    Thanks Stan.

    Here's another tidbit on the Gold the S.Vietnamese supposedly stole on their way out of VN...

    "On April 30, 1975, he told me that South Vietnam's gold reserves, which Nguyen Van Thieu was rumoured to have transported out of the country, in fact remained intact and under guard in the national treasury in Saigon. Hao claimed he had firmly resisted any idea that this gold be sent abroad on the grounds that it should contribute to national reconstruction.

    As soon as I learnt that there were 16 tons of gold sitting in Saigon, I telegraphed the information to Hanoi. Two days later a couple of officials were sent down to take custody of it. The advice of Hao was that if this gold were invested wisely, it would help finance the reconstruction of Vietnam. That idea was rejected as capitalist. But a couple of years later when I was accompanying Truong Chinh on one of his travels and asked him what had happened to this gold, he said that most of it had been used up in coping with various emergencies."

    Following Ho Chi Minh, Bui Tin. 1995. (p. 89).


    TShooters
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 265
    (6/14/01 7:11:38 pm)
    | Del Re: SVN gold
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    That picture pretty well polarized our nation when
    it received wide media/newspaper coverage during
    Tet'68. The TV scenes of the attack on the US Embassy
    in VN did the same, and the media was telling or
    implying to us at home during that time that we were
    losing the war. If I remember right, the
    coverage of the Buddhist monks' self-emolation did just
    the opposite when we were first getting involved in Vietnam.

    Thanks for all the info, Guys!

    Sharon

    dirty423
    Member
    Posts: 12
    (6/14/01 7:55:26 pm)
    | Del
    ezSupporter
    Nguyen Ngoc Loan
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    Thanks to hansenjim for correcting me.
    I still abhor the killing of prisoners. A soldier's mission is military objectives, nothing is gained by executing an unarmed and restrained man. Many of my close friends died at the hands of the NVA, that does not alter the requirement that I behave honorably regarding a captured enemy. If the man had committed the crimes alleged, my duty would be to see that he was tried for acts unbecoming of a soldier. Summary execution is not acceptable in this instance.

    In short: You can't have it both ways, if we behave dishonorably, we can expect nothing else in return.
    The point of the spear

    LarryJK
    Senior Chief Moderator III
    Posts: 176
    (6/14/01 8:09:51 pm)
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    Dirty...point well taken. However, I see the killing in the pic as being a way of life for the Vnamese. Their upbringing would be totally different than ours. Especially considering all the years that were involved in some sort of war or conflict for know telling how many years. Different set of values involved. And that's not to say that ours is better than their's was/are.

    dreamcatcher27371
    Member
    Posts: 45
    (6/14/01 8:56:21 pm)
    | Del Re: Believe It Or Not
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    Our values are different. Our culture is different. The fact that my brother-in-law was tied to a breadfruit tree in Cao Lanh and a bullet sent crashing through his brain because he was a SVN paratrooper (18 years old) put my brain in a revenge mode. Sorry I couldn't do the same for his executioner. This type of stuff went on constantly over there. Only because this was caught on film and the executioner was Head of the White Mice, did it become an issue. None of this makes it right. Different people handle situations differently and when you're "above the law" I guess it's easy to let human nature run its course and revenge is extracted in an "eye for an eye" method.

    dreamcatcher27371
    Member
    Posts: 47
    (6/15/01 6:51:06 am)
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    From Toi Dang:

    Larry,

    When I was in the Washington, D.C. area, Loan was
    there and it happened that his daughter was working as
    a receptionist for a defense contractor where I work
    as a senior accountant. That was the last I heard of
    him. He passed away several years ago. Nguyen Cao Ky
    is in California and he used to own a restaurant in
    Orange County but not any more. Ky also owned a
    liquor store, also not anymore. His daughter is
    Nguyen Cao Ky Duyen who is co-speaker of the MC of a
    pretty popular Vietnamese music recording company in
    France (the Thuy Nga group). She graduated from
    Western State Law School in orange County. I don't
    know what Ky is doing now. Both Ky and Loan came from
    South Vietnam Airforce.

    Three days ago my wife and I attended a fund raising
    event for the "South Vietnam Arm Forces Day". Ky was
    not there. I believe General Khang, the commandant of
    South Vietnam Marine was there and some colonels in
    the army. I sat with a group of former South Vietnam
    Green Beret and the so-called seventh office (they
    used to jump into North Vietnam). We had a great
    time. As far as Navy goes, the head of the all
    combined South Vietnam Arm forces in Orange County is
    a former captain of a, believe it or not, Swift. He
    was from the Fifth Coast Division, the youngest
    division. Station exclusively in Ca Mau, Bo De River
    etc...
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