Best all-around "assault" rifle.

Discussion in 'Large-Bore/Small-Bore Rifle/Shotgun' started by cl00bie, Nov 8, 2008.

  1. user

    user Active Member

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    Absolutely right. But then, people say "possession is 9/10 of the law", and I say that's hogwash. Possession is 1/10 of the law, and the other 9/10 is how you characterize that possession! Referring to defensive weapons as "assault" weapons is a way of justifying a scheme for denying citizens the power to defend themselves and their families.

    It is really important to resist that mischaracterization. If they start a new "assault weapons" ban bill again in any serious way, PLEASE don't whine about how most of the weapons are not "assault" weapons. Instead, refer to the ban as the "Bill to Restrict the Right of Self Defense". Don't let them get away with the mischaracterization!!!

    And while I'm on this particular rant, I'll give you another one. Some states are characterized as "anti-gun", but that's not true - they haven't disarmed the police or the national guard. In fact those states are "Pro-Crime"; they are states with a long history of political corruption and having criminals being highly influential in the political apparatus. Did anybody here watch the "Godfather" movies? Any question but that the godfather was Pro-crime?
  2. graehaven

    graehaven Well-Known Member

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    Very, very good points User. Our offense must ALWAYS include the element of semantics in any good argument. :D
  3. graehaven

    graehaven Well-Known Member

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    All the above being said, and good info too, buy something that's decent and affordable. Don't buy junk: do your homework. More importantly, have enough $$$ left over to buy at least 1,000 rounds of ammo, or more if you can. I think Obama's first big step is going to be to tax the crap out of ammo and firearms sales.

    Who needs to take our guns away, when they can make them, and related ammo virtually un-affordable? :mad:
  4. carver

    carver Moderator

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    I like the way you think! More accurately, almost none of us own an assault riffle, unless we have filled out the papper work and paid the fees! All we own are semi-auto rifles.
  5. RunningOnMT

    RunningOnMT New Member

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    Without repeating what others have said about the "assault weapon" terminology, your choice is going to have to be narrowed down to what potential needs you will have for such a firearm. Compromises must be made.

    If you want a relatively inexpensive weapon that will take a licking and keep on ticking and also fires readily available ammunition that is not priced out of the ballpark go with the AK47. Neither the AK or SKS in 7.62x39 will ever be highly accurate hunting, sniping, or target arms but many feel it is the best compromise out there for your intended purpose. I've heard some fireams "experts" say if they had only one choice in a piece it would be an AK47.

    My only personal combat experience is with the M16 and M14. The M16 was a great piece for delivering accurate close range fire and was highly effective within the ranges it was designed for. The ammunition is lightweight if you are going to be humping a lot of it, readily available, and again no more outrageously priced than most other ammo out there today. The Other thing to consider is that the ammunition would undoubtedly be more plentiful on the battlefield if the SHTF. The drawbacks are that they require constant maintenance and cleaning and from my personal experience lack the power and range to do the job in a lot of the terrain you will encounter in North America....that is if you plan to head for the hills rather than remain in an urban environment. IMO the caliber is ideal for closer range jungle fighting period.

    If you are prepared to live with the maintenance and functionality problems associated with the AR platform you may consider either the 6.8mm or 6.5mm grendel. Based on US SOCOM field testing the grendel is about the most impressive all round caliber ever. It is both lighter weight so easy to carry but high velocity, accurate, flat trajectory, and has a punch comparable to the 7.62x51 at long ranges. The problem is it's a hotdog round, not available in great quantities, and priced through the roof. There are only two manufacturers chambering "AR style arms in this caliber and they are expensive. Have yet to have seen high capacity mags available for these. It's primary competitor to replace the 5.56mm in the US military is the 6.8mm. It is a slightly more effective round than the 5.56 with a slightly greater effective range, and is still far less heavy than the 7.62mm. My guess is, this is the one the military will go with...they always go cheap. Currently you can buy a Bushmaster with 30 rd magazine in 6.8mm for not much more than the Bushmaster and others of the AR type in 5.56mm. I'm still debating investing in one of these myself.

    My favorite combat caliber by far is the 7.62x51mm. The natural choice in that caliber is the M1A1 but it is a battle rifle, not an assault weapon. Much of what has been written about the reliability of the AK47 can be said of the M14. They have been well tested for function in adverse conditions. Of what's available they are about the best compromise for range, accuracy and stopping power. But they are pricey and if you are going to be humping enough ammo for an all day fight you're gonna feel it. Personally I would rather compromise a little and instead of planning on the 25 to 30 fully loaded magazines with an AR, I'd go with a plan to carry 6 to 10 with an M1A1.
    Another piece to consider in 7.62x51mm is the FAL. It is reliable, accurate, and combat tested. Lots of mercenaries prefer them. The FN FAL is getting harder to find but here is a picture of something that is available...I am seriously considering this one. A very reasonable price if you ask me.

    imbell2008.jpg
    Item# FAL Imbel .308 Battle Rifle $919.00
    Brand: Miscellaneous .308 Rifles

    FN/FAL Imbel .308 Battle Rifle, semi auto, these rifles start as original imported Imbel part kits , they are factory built on a Metric Entreprise Arms type 3 receiver made of 4140 steel by Entreprise Arms , the rifle is totally refinished in Mil Spec Zinc Phosphate ,they feature a 21 inch threaded barrel with a Zero climb muzzle brake ,original synthetic stock set, weight 9.8 lbs ,length 43 inches , ships with owners info , 20 round mag and backed up by a limited lifetime factory warranty. These are a resonably priced FAL factory built rifle and not the junky worn out part kits guns built by others.



    Please understand I am no expert by any means. I am still learning here. The info I provided is basically what I have gathered by reading a lot...my personal research to decide what I will purchase.
    My personal choice will be either the one pictured here or the Bushmaster 6.8mm.
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2008
  6. TranterUK

    TranterUK Guest

    Lots of good advice above. The only thing I would add is to choose a calibre which is very available where you I live, avoiding anything foreign. Given your broad requirement and one gun spec, my suggestion would be 7.62x51.
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 24, 2008
  7. sewerman

    sewerman New Member

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    +++1 on the FN-FAL!
    i too carried the M16,M16a1 & M16a2 and i'm not really a fan of the 5.56 or the rifle.
    i became infatuated with after market AR platforms recently but had a bad
    experience wih poor customer service from the company i chose, so i just decided to purchase a FN-FAL and couldn't be happier:)
  8. VZ58

    VZ58 New Member

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    Hi, I'm from Canada...eh, and have a CZ858 Tac-2 and the new VZ58 Sporter Super Short. ( google them ) Here, the CZ is classed as Non-Restricted ( at least an 18.5" barrel ) and can be used pretty much anywhere. The VZ is Restricted ( 7.5" barrel) and is subject to our rules for pistols etc. which means you have to join a gun club and can only transport it to or from there or to meets. We are only allowed 5 shots in the 30 round mags and they are "pinned" at that depth. ( A really hard-to-remove pop rivet ) but you go from legal to "prohibited" with that pin removed. They are the Czech "AK" as the Russians allowed them to make their own "AK" and persuaded them to use the 7.62x39 round. They only look alike...the only things that interchange are the ammo and slings. They are way better made and more accurate. When you have a gunsmith tell you they are put together very well...and it's an over-the-counter assault rifle, that's good enough for me. One caveat though, use the ( more expensive ) non-corrosive ammo unless you REALLY like cleaning your weapons. There are too many drawbacks when using the cheap stuff. These weapons are strong, reliable, LIGHT, even the mags are 1/2 the weight of an AK mag and are a lot of bang-for-the-buck. Speaking of which, the CZ is under $700 and the VZ is over $900.....and well worth it. Try then out.

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    Last edited: Nov 25, 2011
  9. armoredman

    armoredman New Member

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    vz-58 is a very accurate rifle in 7.62x39, lighter by a pound overthe AKM clones we have down here, and mags are available cheap from Czechpoint. get the whole kit there, excellent rifles.

    Only thing in common with the AK is the caliber, BTW.
  10. 6x6pinz

    6x6pinz New Member

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    come on we can find older threads to hash over!
  11. VZ58

    VZ58 New Member

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    Sorry, didn't know there was a "best before date"...and as you can see, I just joined because I googled " Best Assault Rifle" , this came up and youse 'mericans seem to have a real thang for the cheap and plentiful AK's ( like RedJacket seems to ) or the even cheaper SKS's. There are way better alternatives available, now. The company who makes mine are now called CSA ( Czech Small Arms ) but I'm guessing Czechpoint is the US importer, right ? My point about the corrosive, cheap ammo is that it can cause the same problems the original M-16's had to deal with in Vietnam. Stoppages and fouling due to the powder / primers / non-chromed barrels / gas system, etc. I grew up ( 14 years old ) firing the FN-FAL ( semi-auto only) in Army Cadets and when I joined our military, used the full-auto C1 version and to a lesser extent the C2, which had a 30 round versus 20 round mag, a heavy barrel and built in bipod / fore grip and was a couple pounds heavier. It was our version of the M-60. These were great guns...very reliable, accurate to 300 meters, adjustable gas control and super easy to field strip blindfolded....just a little on the heavy side...like an AK. We are not allowed any AK's or clones in Canada, not even a Saiga as they are BASED on the AK. But...even with our old, soon-to-be-changed gun laws, we ARE allowed to have the CZ VZ's because they are not AK based...and that is a good thing. I just love "Shorty" ...( add 2' for the muzzle brake that isn't needed ) it'a a high-velocity sub-machine gun for all intents and purposes and I never thought I could own something like that, here. There might be better, higher end equipment out there but not much cam get you the bang-for-the buck these can. Tight clearances, light , accurate, reliable...isn't that what you want ? Works for me.... ( and besides, we can start a whole new up-dated discussion, now )
  12. Neverhome

    Neverhome Member

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    The Romainan AK will digest just about any round on the market regardless of where manufactured. I have heard that some of the domestically produced AK's will only feed american ammo reliablyl. It is inexpensive and reliable. The 7.62 X 35 is just slightly under the 30-30 bastically and will take down a deer with a well placed shot. I have seen scoped Ak's keep the grouping in a coffee cup at 100 yards. For an all around survival rifle it is hard to beat.

    Neverhome
  13. VZ58

    VZ58 New Member

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    I've heard that about the Romanian AK's. One reason for that could be the loose clearances on most / all AK's & SKS's, depending where or when they were built. They can cycle a lot of sub-standard ammo and keep on going without much maintenance but that can bite you after a while. ( really jammed up " failure to extract" etc ) For what it's worth, the CZ factory sends along a 100 meter,4 shot test-fire target when you open your gun package up and the group is pretty much the same with open sights. I will agree that the AK is a pretty good, all-around weapon...for what it's designed to do. It's killed a LOT of people all over the world. Hell, Mozambique features it on their flag. Thanks for the info.
  14. cycloneman

    cycloneman Well-Known Member

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  15. VZ58

    VZ58 New Member

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    Yes, very good rifles as well. I can't remember if they have an adjustable gas regulator, like the FAL's do. Even used ones can be expensive now, which is why I'd stick with an AK or CZ. ( parts availability and ammo costs as well ) Both the Galil ( based on the AK / M-16, now replaced by the Tavor ) and the South African R-4 ( based on the Galil and replaced the FAL ) are good too....AND combat proven. Bottom line is, there are a number of excellent military weapons out there and like another poster said, the armies of those countries thought enough of them to adopt them. You have to find the balance between reliability, price, ammo, availability, legality, etc to suit your needs. In that respect, it would have to be the AK, though, "cheap and plentiful"....anywhere in the world, right ?
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