Best semi - auto Battle rifle...

Discussion in 'General Military Arms & History Forum' started by ysacres, Mar 7, 2003.

  1. ysacres

    ysacres Well-Known Member

    Joined:
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    Wazzu WA
    polishshooter
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3594
    (7/4/02 12:23:00 am)
    Reply Best Semi-Auto Battle rifle...
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    OK, we thought the BA one was tough, what about this one?

    BTW I am SPECIFICALLY limiting it to SA only...we'll do an "Open" one later to include those designed to be selective fire...
    SVT 38 or 40
    SKS
    M1 Garand
    G-43
    other

    Show results

    "Don't hear him call you an ---hole, hear WHY he's calling you an ---hole." -------- From "A Season on the Brink"

    Xracer
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 2411
    (7/4/02 8:16:02 am)
    Reply Re: Best Semi-Auto Battle rifle...
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    Accurate, reliable, and fired the greatest rifle cartridge ever designed.

    Tac401
    Administrator
    Posts: 5182
    (7/4/02 1:14:02 pm)
    Reply
    Re: Best Semi-Auto Battle rifle...
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    I voted for the Garand but if the M-14 was there too
    it may have been close for me!
    TFF VMBB Email Tac

    Bob In St Louis
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 2520
    (7/5/02 10:52:11 am)
    Reply Re: Best Semi-Auto Battle rifle...
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    FN-49
    Crusty Cruffler of Fine Spanish Pistols - Eibar Rules!

    kdub01
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 731
    (7/6/02 12:30:44 am)
    Reply Re: Best Semi-Auto Battle rifle...
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    The Garand for me - although I hated carrying the heavy damned thing!! 8 round mag, enbloc clip that made that "Sping" noise when empty - but, properly sighted in, was way more accurate than any of the others - including the Ml4!
    "Keep Off The Ridgeline"

    Xracer
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 2429
    (7/6/02 8:05:08 am)
    Reply Re: Best Semi-Auto Battle rifle...
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    Aw, kdub.....it was only REALLY heavy when hanging from your thumb!

    warpig883
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 3858
    (7/6/02 9:50:16 am)
    Reply
    Re: Best Semi-Auto Battle rifle...
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    Shouldn't that be hanging from a bloody thumb
    "I'M NOT GOING TO HAVE SOME REPORTERS PAWING THROUGH OUR PAPERS. WE ARE THE PRESIDENT." - Hillary Clinton commenting on the release of subpoenaed documents

    polishshooter
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3598
    (7/6/02 6:37:02 pm)
    Reply Re: Best Semi-Auto Battle rifle...
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    My DCM Garand (That I sold like an absolute dumb F*****G POLAK in 1992 with a BUNCH of accesories for $475 just to buy a set of F*****G Hoosiers for a F*****G Mini-stock I was racing at the time and thought I got a DEAL since I only paid $165 for it...)(As I kick myself AGAIN!!!!) was pretty decent for a mismatched Springfield Armory reworked battle rifle. Much more accurate than I was, and on top of that, ALWAYS "hung" on the first round so no "Garand Thumb" for me! The drill where I loaded and then "slapped" the handle was second nature for me, and I was just as fast as anybody with the reloads, SPEED was not an issue...trigger jerking was...










    BTW, that decision ranks as one of my Top 10 BIGGEST regrets of my life, maybe even one of the top one or two...
    "Don't hear him call you an ---hole, hear WHY he's calling you an ---hole." -------- From "A Season on the Brink"

    kdub01
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 747
    (7/6/02 9:10:44 pm)
    Reply Re: Best Semi-Auto Battle rifle...
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    Polish -

    M1 thumbs weren't normally caused by releasing the bolt with a clip of ammo in the mag - it was when the weapon was empty and you were closing the action. If there was ammo in the mag, your thumb would ride the top of the cartridges and get out of harm's way. If empty, there was a tendency for it to stay in front of the bolt face and end up wedged between it and the chamber.

    Never received one myself, but saw a few by others (OUCH!)
    "Keep Off The Ridgeline"

    Xracer
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 2436
    (7/7/02 8:55:12 am)
    Reply Re: Best Semi-Auto Battle rifle...
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    Yep.....usually when going from "Inspection........ Arms" (bolt back) to "Port...... Arms" (close bolt on thumb)!

    Been there....done that.

    Different name
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 2282
    (7/8/02 7:07:18 am)
    Reply
    Re: Best Semi-Auto Battle rifle...
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    I wuz lucky....issued a "Grease Gun" and a 45.
    Charlie D
    Climbs 100 ft. walls....

    Tank commanderA24
    Member
    Posts: 42
    (7/8/02 10:22:29 am)
    Reply M1 vs FN-49
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    I picked the M1 because its a great rifle. The SKS was a carbine and uses 7.62X39 not a battle rifle cartridge.

    I do like the FN-49 though it has several features that are better then the Garand and probably missed greatness because it wasn't quite ready when WW2 broke out.

    I have both and enjoy using them, I have to try an accuracy test shoot off.

    The M1 has better sights but the FN-49 has a much simpler gas operating system and bolt.

    PS If Patton loved it it had to be good, tankers have to stick together.

    TCA24

    jimejones
    Member
    Posts: 48
    (7/9/02 7:43:10 am)
    Reply M1 forever!
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    I was the armory custodian for a little Navy outpost with 25 M1 rifles and plenty of practice ammo. One of the M1s sprayed hits over an eight inch circle at 200 yards. I could see no difference in the accuracy of the other 24, so they all must have been more accurate than I was. One of them helped me get a third place in the 1963 17th Naval District matches. No big deal--the district includes only Adak and Kodiak, and the Adak participants were more concerned with enjoying the relatively cosmopolitan pleasures of Kodiak than winning anything in the match. Not only were the M1s accurate, but they were reliable. I encountered more problems with a few clips of ammo in a 6.5 Carcano than with the M1 during two years of shooting.

    boeboe1
    Member
    Posts: 20
    (7/18/02 2:43:23 pm)
    Reply Best Semi-Auto Battle rifle...
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    Beretta BM59, based on the Garand.

    LIKTOSHOOT
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 5447
    (7/18/02 3:27:33 pm)
    Reply Re: Best Semi-Auto Battle rifle...
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    Actually a hacked up M-14, but never saw much real service. LTS

    boeboe1
    Member
    Posts: 21
    (7/19/02 12:35:48 am)
    Reply Best Semi-Auto Battle rifle...
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    The BM59 never originated as an M14. It's origin was strictly Garand from Winchester tooling. Beretta bought the Winchester Arms Garand tooling and started making Garands from Winchester tools. It was from those same tools that the BM59 sprang. A far cry from a "hacked-up" M14.


    boeboe1
    Member
    Posts: 22
    (7/19/02 12:48:27 am)
    Reply Best Semi-Auto Battle rifle...
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    I might add that anyone who has actually ever seen a real Beretta BM59 and is familiar with Springfield Armory's M1A can tell you which is really the higher quality rifle.

    LIKTOSHOOT
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 5452
    (7/19/02 8:11:31 am)
    Reply Re: Best Semi-Auto Battle rifle...
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    The M14 was originally produced for the U.S. military by four manufacturers: TRW, Springfield Armory, Winchester, and Harrington and Richardson (H&R). The weapon was produced from 1957 until 1964 when the AR-15 (M16) was being considered and eventually adopted. Approximately 1,400,000 M14s were manufactured.

    VARIATIONS
    The M14 is basically a product-improved M1 Garand. The M14 cured the short comings of the 1930's-developed Garand. Briefly, these improvements were a detachable 20-round capacity magazine, a floating gas piston, the gas port on the barrel located closer to the receiver, a roller on the bolt to reduce friction, full-auto capability, a flash suppressor, chrome lined barrel, and a "smaller" round: the 7.62 NATO or as civilians were to know it, the .308.

    Like I said.............



    boeboe1
    Member
    Posts: 23
    (7/19/02 9:40:04 am)
    Reply Best Semi-Auto Battle rifle.
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    The above quote describes the M14, not the BM59. No where in the above quote is the BM59 mentioned. Find something authorative you can quote about the BM59.

    What you said was the BM59 was "actually a hacked up M14", which it is not. It's similarity to the M14 is only that both were derived from the Garand.

    LTS, who deleted your posts on GB? Was it you, or GB administration?



    LIKTOSHOOT
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 5453
    (7/19/02 7:19:09 pm)
    Reply Re: Best Semi-Auto Battle rifle.
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    What post was deleted???

    Yes it came from the M1 Garand, but first was the M14, Beretta contracted to copy it.....hence BM59.....'59" was the first year.....actually production was 1960. There is also a BM62 and others. First date M14, 1957 and yes it came from the M1, the Beretta is a copy of the M14 and shares many of the same parts, as most were built stateside and exported (receivers) they were never imported by Beretta and most of the ones seen today are/were made right here.

    Which comes first, a M14 built in 1957 or the Beretta, first copy effort in 1959????

    boeboe1
    Member
    Posts: 24
    (7/19/02 11:05:21 pm)
    Reply Best Semi-Auto Battle rifle...
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    The only parts on a BM59 that are interchangable with an M14 are the same parts that you could take off a Garand and put on an M14. If it will fit on both a Garand and M14, it might fit a BM59. If it is exclusively for an M14 the chances are remote it will fit a BM59. Other than the magazine well configuation, there is little difference between Garand parts and BM59 parts. The operating system of a BM59 is Garand, not M14. It doesn't even take M14 magazines.

    Sarco has recently been selling BM59 parts kits, if you look at page 104 of Shotgun News July 8, 2002 issue you will see a photo of a BM59 in the Sarco Ad. You will notice it looks just like a Garand with a 20 round magazine. That's because it IS a Garand with a 20 round Magazine. As the ad says:

    "Italian BM59 Parts Set. ....This rifle is essentially a standard M1 Garand semi-automatic that has been modified to use 20 round BM59 magazines, and has been chambered to 7.62mm NATO ammunition. It retains the well proven Garand sights, trigger mechanism and gas system while doing away with the 8 round Garand clip in favor of a 20 round detatchable box magazine. These parts can be assembled on an M1 Garand receiver which will require a few modifications to accept the new feed system".

    End Sarco quote.

    Again, it doesn't even use M14 magazines, much less the parts that separate the M14 from the M1 Garand.

    Also, their importer was Springfield Armory. Those imported between 1982 and 1989 are marked both Beretta and Springfield Armory (as the importer). And all parts bear the Beretta marking. Of course, the importation was discontinued in 1989 for the same reasons other assault firearm importation was discontinued. There were some 200 imported back in the '60s, those are rather rare.

    If you check your reference books on gun values, you will find them listed under Springfield Armory, rather than Beretta, as Springfield Armory was the importer. You will also notice their value is considerably higher than the standard Springfield Armory M1A. Of course, the ones imported by Springfield Armory featured a grenade launcher/flash hider/muzzle brake combo, along with bayonet lug and a rather nifty winter/grenade trigger. A rather expensive "hacked up" M14, I would say.

    I wonder, if they were being made here, why did they discontinue importation in 1989 instead of making them up until the 1994 ban, as were other US made assault rifles?

    They are clearly a stand alone derivative of the Garand, not the M14.

    Xracer
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 2503
    (7/20/02 8:31:51 am)
    Reply Re: Best Semi-Auto Battle rifle...
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    Boeboe....while I agree with you on the BM59, it doesn't qualify here as a semi-auto rifle.

    Most, if not all, of the early BM59s were converted M1s (given/sold/transferred to the Italian Army shortly after the war), and were converted to the select-fire mode.

    boeboe1
    Member
    Posts: 25
    (7/20/02 10:18:00 am)
    Reply Best Semi-Auto Battle rifle...
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    The BM59 parts kits Sarco is selling are surplus parts from semi-auto rifles, not select fire. Not all of them were converted to select fire. None the less, I promise not to say anything more about it, except the semi-automatic BM59 was the best battle rifle ever made.

    Fresh20
    Member
    Posts: 10
    (7/25/02 1:34:07 am)
    Reply Re: Best Semi-Auto Battle rifle...
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    My vote would have to go with the FN-FAL (or SLR in NZ)
    The first rifle I was issued... shot better with it than either the M-16 or Steyr AUG. Pissy little 5.56mm.
    My 5 cents, for what it's worth.

    polishshooter
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3608
    (7/30/02 9:40:32 pm)
    Reply Re: Best Semi-Auto Battle rifle...
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    Hey Fresh, did you ever read "The Five Fingers?"

    Is "Gayle Rivers" for real? I've read from several sources that the mission to China actually happened, at that he really was NZSAS and has since talked about it.

    If true, he must be as much a hero there as say a Carlos Hathcock is here...

    That has to rank as one of my favorite books of all time, some of the best battle writing I ever read.

    He was the inspiration for many of my experiments in combat shotgun ammo, the first time I read it I was starting to reload 12 guage, and I tried to duplicate his ballbearing/#6 load with a 44 cal lead ball seated by eye in the center of a load of 1oz of #6s and you CAN keep the ball in the A/B zone of an IPSC target out to 50 yds and beyond, so that much is no BS, plus I liked his reasoning..."I like to work close..."

    A man after my own heart...even if he DID use an 870....
    "Don't hear him call you an ---hole, hear WHY he's calling you an ---hole." -------- From "A Season on the Brink"

    Fresh20
    Member
    Posts: 16
    (8/8/02 7:15:51 pm)
    Reply Five Fingers
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    Polish
    From what I can find out, whomever Gayle Rivers is, he wasn't NZSAS.
    As for combined ops... SAS's seem to stick together, UK, Aussie, Kiwi, Fiji (less now than before the coups).
    As for famous... SpecOps don't do publicity now, do they?
    The NZ govt only admitted the SAS were in Afghanistan after the USDoD released the info. We don't talk about them, ever.
    Cheers

    polishshooter
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3647
    (8/30/02 10:12:31 pm)
    Reply Re: Five Fingers
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    Fresh, SOPs don't do publicity unless they are retired SEALs, then they write books.

    I just finished the one by Dennis "Snake" Chalker, it was pretty decent, I just may have to read some of the ones written by his boss in the SEALs, Dick Marcinko...

    BTW, what's the scoop on all the FN-FALs on the market here now....all the dealer catalogues, SGN, and gun shows are swamped with them, at decent prices too...even if I DON'T understand the difference betweem "Metric" and regulars or whatever...

    Cetmes and G3s too...wish I had a spare $300 laying around, saw some not too ratty ones for around that much at the last show...
    "Don't hear him call you an ---hole, hear WHY he's calling you an ---hole." -------- From "A Season on the Brink"

    Celt
    Member
    Posts: 13
    (1/7/03 9:54:09 pm)
    Reply Re: Five Fingers
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    The Five fingers was one of "fiction" war type novels I ever read. I really like the book. I have to purchase and read it again. I have not read it for at least 20 years.

    Celt
    H.D. Rifles

    magnum74
    Member
    Posts: 18
    (1/10/03 2:10:19 pm)
    Reply Re: Five Fingers
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    Well...from the choices we were given...I say the M-1 Garand. I feel it was a breakthrough in battle rifles...I believe Gen. Patton said so himself. I would've picked another rifle in the "other" category but that can go for miles ...but I would say the HK G-36 is so far the most innovative battle rifle there is right now. Another great subject!

    polishshooter
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3744
    (1/10/03 8:52:26 pm)
    Reply Re: Five Fingers
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    Celt, the first time I read "5 Fingers" I thought it was fiction too....even if it did say something like "If Fiction, a great story...if true, scary" or something like that...

    But about 5 years or so later I read a reference about some of the survivors of the "'5 Fingers' China" raid, and what they were doing now...I wish I could remember where, but it was in a blurb either in the margin of the USA Today "International" or Newsweek "Newsmakers" or something, somewhere credible but not where you'd expect to see it. Absolutely floored me when I read it.

    It mentioned the book and the person whose pseudonym was "Gayle Rivers."

    Since then I found the book again and reread it, and somethings in it do sound almost TOO real for fiction...

    Heck, if I get bored tonite I may do some Google work on it tonite and see what I find...


    "Don't hear him call you an ---hole, hear WHY he's calling you an ---hole." -------- From "A Season on the Brink"
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2003
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