Best 'Sniper' Rifle

Discussion in 'General Military Arms & History Forum' started by ysacres, Mar 7, 2003.

  1. ysacres

    ysacres Well-Known Member

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    OneRoundShort
    Member
    Posts: 1
    (12/12/02 4:26:47 pm)
    Reply Best 'Sniper' Rifle
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    Please post which rifle you would consider to be...
    "The Best Sniper Rifle of All Time and Why."

    WWII to present -- Thank You!

    Go Get Beer
    Member
    Posts: 48
    (12/13/02 3:58:08 am)
    Reply Re: Best 'Sniper' Rifle
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    The problem is that even sniper rifles are divided according to purpose. you can't put Steyr AMR, Barrett Light Fifty and SSG550 into one bag. All are sniper rifles, one is designed for use by paratroops against material, other is a military sniper rifle (one of the best if not the best), the last a police sniper rifle (300 meters range, not more).
    I'd love to get my hands on a Dragunov. What was the US Government offering for an intact one during Vietnam? US$250,000. IMHO One thing missing from the design is the gas piston cutoff. The valve increasing the amount of gas in the piston could for sure be converted to act as a cutoff as well. Does anybody know if that was attempted? Did it bring anything precision-wise?

    Xracer
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3199
    (12/13/02 8:59:12 am)
    Reply Re: Best 'Sniper' Rifle
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    Hi OneRoundShort......Welcome to TFF! It's always great to see new people posing provocative questions!

    IMO, probably, right now, the M40A3 is about as good as it gets.

    www.snipercentral.com/m40a3.htm

    The Barrett 50 has greater range, but is probably too heavy and bulky for general field use.

    But.......for nostalgia's sake, I'd love to have an M1903-A4 hanging above my fireplace!

    www.snipercentral.com/m1903a4.htm (I promise to lick it clean everyday!)



    Edited by: Xracer at: 12/13/02 9:02:50 am

    LIKTOSHOOT
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 6664
    (12/13/02 9:26:30 am)
    Reply Re: Best 'Sniper' Rifle
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    Dragunov. Go ahead, ask me why???




    LTS



    1952Sniper
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 665
    (12/13/02 9:30:24 am)
    Reply Re: Best 'Sniper' Rifle
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    Xracer, you worry me sometimes. FWIW, licking is not an accepted practice of cleaning a military firearm.

    There's no way I could list any one rifle design as the "best" sniper rifle. In the early years, snipers were just using the same rifles as everyone else, with modifications such as scopes etc. (like the Mosin 91/30 in WWII Russia). And, as mentioned in a previous post, it really depends on what type of sniping you're doing. For obvious reasons, a .50BMG would not be suitable for urban hostage situations, but it might be great for battlefield conditions.

    I'm partial to the original Dragunov, not because it's the "best" sniper rifle in the world, but because it was unique and has been such a successful design that there are lots of copies of it.

    But no matter what gun a sniper uses, he is only as good as his training, and he is ALWAYS limited by the operational conditions.
    Macht kaputt, was euch kaputt macht!

    LIKTOSHOOT
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 6665
    (12/13/02 10:43:15 am)
    Reply Re: Best 'Sniper' Rifle
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    Dragunov

    Some of the many reasons. First, it is the only rifle produced as a "sniper" rifle in mass production and has been for over fourty years-still in service today. Though the west considers pin-point sub MOA as a sniper qualified rifle, a sniper in it`s true form (shooter) is not always required to make a kill, a hit is all that is desired. The Dragunov is a simplistic and robust rifle. Not limited to it`s weak scope, it also has iron sights. Scoped hits in Ahfganistan at 1200 meters confirmed, and iron sight hits to 600 meters, also confirmed. Semi-auto for fast follow ups, or walking the round in. The long barrel and excellent flash-hider/muzzle break allow the shooter to re-aquire with excellent speed. User friendly and tough. The long stroke piston, allows for less recoil. Simply put, a mass produced stamped receiver, with a barrel stuffed on it. The bullet itself is no slouch either. Many did not think the accuarcy was up to par, when the first one was tested after being captured, but ball ammo was used. Then came the discovery of special ammo make just for it.....I believe 10 different styles and bullet weights. When this ammo was found and tested.......eyebrows were raise a little higher. Much is still kept seceret about this rifle.......from the public-anyway. Russian garbage, inaccuarate....ya-de-ya. Not so. For a non-custom (as we make-customs) mass produced rifle, it more than serves it`s purpose and does without tuning or baby-ing it in the field, clean-dirty-muddy.


    LTS



    OneRoundShort
    Member
    Posts: 3
    (12/14/02 7:37:35 am)
    Reply Thanks for the replys!!!!!!!!!
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    Hi Guys,

    Thanks for the welcome!

    I asked the question because I want to acquire something in this class of weapon. You all have given me great information. I lool forward to studying and reviewing every word. And I know it will help me make a more informed decision.

    If there are anymore suggestions....please feel free to e-mail me stuarth@sbcsolutions.com.

    Again Thanks!!!

    Xracer
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3204
    (12/14/02 9:06:22 am)
    Reply Re: Thanks for the replys!!!!!!!!!
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    ORS....here's a good reference: www.snipercentral.com/index.phtml

    You may have some difficulty obtaining a genuine military sniper rifle....they tend to be pricey and there are a lot of fakes and counterfeits out there, but you may be able to build your own replica.

    During Vietnam, the Marine Corps snipers used a pretty-much "off the shelf" Remington Model 700/40X with a Redfield 3-9x Scope. www.snipercentral.com/m40a1.htm

    Whichever way you decide to go.....good luck and keep in touch. We enjoy having you here.

    OneRoundShort
    Member
    Posts: 5
    (12/17/02 12:58:32 pm)
    Reply Thanks
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    LIKTOSHOOT ...Going Dragonov..appreciated your comments. Let's keep in touch. Thanks

    Xracer
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3239
    (12/18/02 10:33:06 am)
    Reply Re: Thanks
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    Just wondering.....if the Dragonov was "the best sniper rifle ever", why did the Russians replace it with the DV-98?

    Celt
    Member
    Posts: 9
    (12/29/02 6:01:11 pm)
    Reply Re: Thanks
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    The Dragonov is a really a designated marksman rifle at best and is not even close to being in a class with rifles like the M-24 and the M-40 A1-A3.
    The Russian thinking behind the Dragonov was to arm many soldiers with them. A few in each platoon to give more accurate aimed fire to add with the AK-47 fire that the rest used. I was in fact a designated marksman rifle to start with and not a Sniper rifle.

    The accuracy is marginal at best when compared to the US rifles.
    Confirmed hits at 1200 meters where sheer luck with the marginal accuracy offered by the Dragonov.

    Shure they are a deadly rifle, but cannot come close to comparing with other semi auto deisgnated sniper rifles such as the M-21, M-25 H&K PSG-1 or the SR-25 MK11 Mod0.

    Why do you think that the best Sniper units in the world use something other than the Dragonov? Because it is not near as good for the task as many others.

    FWIW
    Celt
    H.D. Rifles

    Dave1
    Member
    Posts: 10
    (1/29/03 11:01:19 am)
    Reply Re: Thanks
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    Hi in my opinion the best sniper rifle of all time is the Parker Hale M85.Out to 600 meters snipers would get 100% hit rates where they aimed and out to 1000 meters snipers would get 85% hit rates.(of course it only goes down because of some bad snipers).Plus this sniper rifle was made with iron sights for back up. www.snipercentral.com/m85.htm

    my other favorite sniper rifle would be the AI Super Magnum in .338 Lapua which inproves on the parker hale M85.It has a maxium range of 1600 meters+ and has .5MOA.For more information on this rifle heres some links www.snipercentral.com/l96a1.htm and www.snipercentral.com/pm_sm.htm

    PS Hi One Round Short hows the Dragonov going?

    Edited by: Dave1 at: 1/29/03 11:23:17 am

    polishshooter
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3768
    (2/8/03 11:00:38 pm)
    Reply Re: Thanks
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    Yeah, the Dragunov is NOT "really" a sniper rifle, but rather a "support" weapon.

    One thing the West didn't understand at the time was it's intended role in the Soviet attack...Dragunov equipped marksmen (the translation is something like "sharpshooter," not the traditional Russian "snayperskaya")were supposed to hang back 300m or so WITH THE MMGs (from their manuals) and engage specific individual targets for the advancing infantry with point fire...crew served weapons, firing ports on vehicles or bunkers, light skinned vehicles,drivers etc...while the MMGs provided the "beaten zone" area support.

    It was NOT intended for the type of warfare the West assigned to "Scout-Sniper teams..." i.e., one shot kills on individual soldiers at 500-1000m. It was NOT intended to be a "tack-driver," just more accurate and harder hitting at range than the AK47 or 74 that the average infantryman carried.

    This was one of the reasons the West thought it was NOT as good a "sniper" rifle as we had...they just didn't understand the "doctrine," which is everything. It is not and never was a true "sniper" rifle. (And I want one!!!)


    Incidentally, again, I just read, in the past two weeks, where the USMC is now reemphasising "aimed" fire at the squad level, with designated "marksman" to provide accurate fire out to 300m to support attacks....with HB M16s, NOT M4 carbines!!!

    So again, just MAYBE the Soviets were ahead of the curve on this one, or maybe it's just another example of "Nothing new under the sun!"
    Anybody who thinks money can buy happiness needs to remember Michael Jackson.

    Xracer
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3691
    (2/9/03 9:50:33 am)
    Reply Re: Thanks
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    More like "nothing new under the sun", Polish.

    At the Battle of Cercy in 1346, the British selected a group of their most accurate longbowmen to pick off the French "officers" while the rest fired "en masse".

    sgtfubar
    Member
    Posts: 5
    (2/27/03 10:47:22 pm)
    Reply Re: Best 'Sniper' Rifle
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    Remington 700...Accurate, reliable, free-floating barrell....However it'd be nice to have a Springfield '03

    Barrett 50 cal has a huge range, however it's too big and bulky

    What about the PSG1, and Dragunov ??

    AznientWisdom
    Member
    Posts: 7
    (2/28/03 12:35:54 am)
    Reply Re: Best 'Sniper' Rifle
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    Personally, i like the Parker-Hale M-85, it has excellent accuracy, can be effective up to 900 meters, has a quick-detachable bi-pod, silent safely catch, threaded muzzle for flash suppressor, accepts variety of scopes, and 10 rounds detachable. What do u think



    Edited by: AznientWisdom at: 3/1/03 7:51:13 am

    Xracer
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3821
    (3/1/03 9:51:00 am)
    Reply Re: Best 'Sniper' Rifle
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    Well, whatever our opinions are as to "The Best Sniper Rifle", we can probably all agree that it's the guy with his finger on the trigger that counts most.

    For those of you interested in Snipers (and I guess most of us here in this thread are), I'd like to recommend a good book to read...."Dear Mom....A Sniper's Vietnam" by Joseph T. Ward. www.amazon.com/exec/obido...05-0315044
    search.barnesandnoble.com...518J0H7F3X

    AznientWisdom
    Member
    Posts: 10
    (3/2/03 3:23:14 am)
    Reply Re: Best 'Sniper' Rifle
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    Are there news on new types of sniper rifles in development

    Xracer
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3831
    (3/2/03 6:33:05 pm)
    Reply Re: Best 'Sniper' Rifle
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    I suppose so......though any such info would be classified. The military (of all nations) is always looking for more effective weapons.

    Sniper weapons, however, seem to be more evolutionary than revolutionary. I imagine our current sniper rifles are constantly being "tweaked" in light of information coming back from the field.

    AznientWisdom
    Member
    Posts: 11
    (3/2/03 9:12:27 pm)
    Reply Re: Best 'Sniper' Rifle
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    I have two suggestions that could be pretty cool if they could make it , like having bullet rounds that is made from liquid that is harden which can (i know it but can't remember the medical term for it ) makes a person bleed much faster than normal rate so when the bullet hits it can make the target bleed so fast they will be in shock, this way, the sniper dont have to aim for head to critically disable the target. This way the sniper can aim for the middle to be just as effective and the middle is isn't as small as the head and not as senitive to movement because it is easier to dodge a bullet with the head than the middle since the head is higher than the middle even the smallest movement of the higher target like the head will move more compared to the the lower target like the middle in ratio. This way it can be more humane way to achieve a sniper's goal without killing the target, this way the target loses alot of blood and in shock needs medical attendation right away after one shot and they can't fight anymore, plus they will be in the hospital for days, even weeks trying to recover the loss blood and repair damage.

    Another one is to make rounds with small magets that pushs outward, then by firing in any equipment with metalic parts(like pretty much all of them ) then the maget will start pushing outward and destroy the equipment's key components no matter where the shot hits. The bullets must need a special bullet case to contain the maget so it doesn't break the sniper's rifle, and that would be funny . I was very bored since everybody has named the rifles i like, what do u guys think about my ideas

    Edited by: AznientWisdom at: 3/3/03 10:53:54 pm

    warpig883
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 6464
    (3/3/03 11:16:46 pm)
    Reply
    Re: Best 'Sniper' Rifle
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    develope them and give me one







    AznientWisdom
    Member
    Posts: 15
    (3/4/03 9:28:47 am)
    Reply Re: Best 'Sniper' Rifle
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    i wish, i thought u experts can tell me if it is possible of developing such weapons

    Here is another wacky idea, if they could make a liquid that can create a heart attack, then the sniper can fire the round and the round disssolve in the target and create a heart a attack so they can't idenify their were killed by snipers .

    Maybe we can discuss about sniper tips, u can go wrong there since there is no end on people versions of how to improve sniping like location and positions.I got some tips

    - find a place that have a great view of target, have great concelment, and have many escape routes
    -when firing from a window,dont be too close or u get spotted
    -when firing from a conceled location and have to remove objects in the way, dont do it where it doesn't match the surroundings anymore to avoid drawing attendation, remove more object if needed to match the surrounding again
    -control breathing, it could make u twitch and miss, in cold weather it could betray ur postion when u breathe it is like smoke, coughing and sneezing could also betray ur postion
    -i think prone is most steady position
    -use everything in surroundings to the fullest to concel yourself

    if any of my infomation is wrong and u want to correct me or u want to add stuff, please do so

    Edited by: AznientWisdom at: 3/6/03 6:12:01 am
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2003
  2. kaylan1

    kaylan1 New Member

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    The M40A1-A3 are great. (what I carried) But I have found a really good rifle. It's spendy but worth it if you shoot comp. or use it for work. It's the Blazer LRS93. I have one .308. When My chief told me about it, he said it was guareenteered 1/6 MOA at 100yds. OK, let me see this rifle. I shot his older model. It was smooth, adjustable to fit any shooters preference. I bought one thru my work. Got a package deal. (rifle, scope and case)
    It came with a leupold Varie X III 3.5 x10. Took it to the range, shot 20 rds of fed. gold match 168gr. BTHP at 100 yds. 4 groups of 5 rds for a MOA. (haven't shot a sniper rifle in 12 yrs) The Blazer did very well. weighs 10.5 pounds, very smooth and fast straight pull-back bolt, fluted barrel, full floating, 5 rd mag, Harris bipod, adjustable buttplate, adjustable trigger (left- right, trigger pressure (1.5 pnds for me) and adjustable cheek pad. The 2 best groups out of the 4 was group 2= .08 MOA and group 3=.16 MOA. It has a muzzle break that reduces recoil and shot signature immensely. comes in different cal. Since the test I've changed to mil-dot scope and molly coated rounds only. It has a space age look to it. go to the compitition shooting forum there are a few of us that have some pics posted there.
  3. stash247

    stash247 New Member

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    The M40 package they are today building in Quantico, is hard to beat, if it is an urban range weapon that is desired, for use against personnel.
    The stuff Ronnie Barrett is building, for harder targets, is as accurate, over it's effective range, and will (literally) stop a bus, right here, right now.
    Guess we need to define the mission of a 'sniper' to go further.
    WTF are we shooting, and, at what range/conditions???
  4. rangerruck

    rangerruck New Member

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    i agree with the other dude about the parker hale. i hav a post ww2 in 308, very fancy wood, stamped j.c. penny's believe it or not . with several types of military rounds from different countries, this thing is a one whole punch and im just not that good a shot.
  5. rangerruck

    rangerruck New Member

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    plus price on these are allways very good.
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2005
  6. Birdville2011

    Birdville2011 New Member

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  7. Recon 173

    Recon 173 Member

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    When I was in Viet Nam I did duty as a sniper. My rifle was an XM-21. The rifle used 7.62 NATO National Match ammo and was a delight to shoot. It was the most accurate rifle I have EVER shot. I loved it. I have attached a photo of a feral pig that I shot with my rifle. I hit it with one round from about a hundred yards away. While I had my rifle I got into a sniper-to-sniper exchange. I fired one round that the intel guys said hit the enemy sniper right in the head and killed him. The two "trainees" with the dead enemy sniper were actually afraid to move at all for about an hour because they didn't know if I was going to get them or not.

    Attached Files:

  8. stash247

    stash247 New Member

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    Recon, welcome to TFF; and welcome back to the world!
    I was 'detatched', and assigned to the 'third herd', many moons ago, from first, Okinowa (1 SFG), and later, Nha Trang (5 SFG), so know the weather, quite well.
    The 21 is a heck of a rifle, then, and now, but these youngsters, in service, today, have such gear as to make you and me, with gear like that, totally obsolete.
    Depending on your tour, you just might remember me, the 'spook', in sterile 'tigers', who was coming in, as coffee was coming up, slept all day, and left the compound at 0 dark thirty, with a 21, hung from an AN-PVS4 the first in country; I hand carried it, from Varo, in Texas!
    I was at Evans, and Eagle, off and on from 69 to 72, and never was much noticed, except for my hours.
    Welcome home, my friend!
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2008
  9. gandog56

    gandog56 Member

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    Barrett 50 cal. Shoot through the wall and kill 'em!
  10. BoltDragon

    BoltDragon New Member

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    For great damage and penetration, use the NTW 20.
    20mm rounds!!
    Only trouble is the recoil and it weights a ton...
  11. chrismc1268

    chrismc1268 New Member

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    I'm new to the forum, but consider myself somewhat knowledgeable in this field, as i was a marksman in UK Forces some years ago. When shooting from inside a building, a marksman or sniper will always shoot from some distance back from an open window, so as not to give away his position, and eliminate the flash from the weapon. This also removes the breathe and sneezing option you mentioned. Also, the best tip i can give you, if you shoot, is to fire between heart beats. When yout heart beats, it creates very slight movement within the body, if you control your breathing and relax, you time your shot so that you fire between beats, and there is nothing to interfere with your aim. Hope this helps in some way.

    My favourite weapons are MP5, SLR 7.62, and the Heckler and Koch SLR .22 bullet conversion. Awesome weapons and all brilliant in their field.

    Hapy shooting friend,

    Take care, keep yer head down ; )


    Chris
  12. artabr

    artabr New Member

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    Welcome to the forum Chris.


    Art
  13. islenos

    islenos New Member

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    The best sniper rifle is one that the shooter is most suited to use in the given situation. Even though I loved my bolt gun, At times the semi-auto provided a easier egress in urban environments. So as with anything, the right tool for the right job.
  14. stash247

    stash247 New Member

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    RIGHT you are, use the best tool you have avalable; in my case, RVN, it was not the most accurate rifle, but the one that did the job.
    My M-14 would have made the grade, at Camp Perry, and been beaten, by more accutate bolt guns, at the finish.
    But, i could launch three rounds, in under a second, any one of which would ruin somebody's day, so it served it's purpose!
  15. MJ1

    MJ1 New Member

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    !!!!!!L42A1!!!!!!!


    ...MJ...
    ..RVN..
    .67/68.
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2008
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