Bible question

Discussion in 'Religious Discussions' started by 76Highboy, Jul 29, 2012.

  1. This thread ignores the alternate story in which Lilith preceded Eve.

    But seriously, the true self (a gnostic concept to which I think Paul subscribes) which is beyond time/space is an aspect of the Divine Self, and the recognition of the fact of that relationship gives one the power to become a son of God. Jesus showed us how. "And to all who believeth in him" means to ascribe credibility to him, not merely to believe he existed. "For even the demons do that, and shudder." Since each of us, in that context, is neither created, nor made, and "of one being with The Father", it doesn't make sense to talk about humanity having been created on the sixth day. "Before Abraham was, I am." applies to each of us. It's the realization of the true self (that's where the gnosticism comes in) that's the key. After all, Jesus didn't say, "worship me", he said, "follow me."
  2. ampaterry

    ampaterry *TFF Admin Staff Chaplain* Staff Member Supporting Member

    Dec 20, 2008
    West Tennessee
    Hey, user, to each his own!

    I take a more literal view of scripture, but in most cases this is NOT a salvation issue -

  3. 76Highboy

    76Highboy Well-Known Member

    Jan 1, 2012
    Thanks Terry.

    I agree that Adam was the first "Fleshly" man, which is what Paul was addressing in 1 Cor. 15:45. If you read from 1 Cor. 40-45 the perspective is on the spiritual and the earthly bodies ans so Paul exemplifies Adam as the first earthly man. However, from what I read in Gen 1:27-31 the author is speaking of the celestial body. However, weather it is celestial (spiritual) or terrestrial (earthly) man was still created before the foundation of the world was created.

    New International Version (NIV)

    27 So God created mankind in his own image,
    in the image of God he created them;
    male and female he created them.

    28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground. ”

    29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food. ” And it was so.

    31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning —the sixth day.

    Here we can see that God created mankind. Then we see the word "Them" meaning more than one. Then we see that they were male and female. Then we see"-the sixth day". Now one thing that keeps sticking out in my mind is this. On the sixth day God spoke to all of them, and he gave them a set of instructions,,, them meaning male and female. However, once God made Adam, he gave him instructions that were slightly different that on the sixth day, and he only gave them to the male. This would indicate that he spoke to every created being on the sixth day, and then to Adam on the eighth day, or the day after the seventh

    This has baffled me because you don't hear it preached this way but this is how I read it. I am always open to scripture backing the fact.

    From what I read and understand, we were all created before Adam was ever placed on this world. Yes it is spiritual, but fact is we still existed even before the womb.

    Jerm 1:5

    5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew[a] you,
    before you were born I set you apart;
    I appointed you as a prophet to the nations. ”






    Last edited: Jul 30, 2012
  4. ampaterry

    ampaterry *TFF Admin Staff Chaplain* Staff Member Supporting Member

    Dec 20, 2008
    West Tennessee
    As I said elsewhere, to each his own. Yours is an interesting concept, but not the one I see. When God says he knew us before we were formed, I take that as indicating God's omnificence - he has perfect knowledge of the future, so knows every thing about us before we exist.
    God created time and space - but he is not limited by his own creation. I believe he can see tomorrow as clearly as we see yesterday, and therefore knows everything about us before we are born.
    I know that is a rather different concept, but to me it ties together a lot of loose ends in scripture, like his identifying himself as I AM. If a being exists at all points of time without personally experiencing the passage of time, I AM is a perfect description of them; they never WERE, and they never WILL BE, but are, at every point in time, I AM.

    Then let us look at Christs sacrifice.
    We are told that he suffered for our sins.
    This raises the question; did he suffer for a sin which I managed to not commit?
    Or did he suffer too little because I commited more sins than anticipated?
    There are two solutions to that dilemna;
    1. Every point in history is fixed in place already, every action we ever take is already cast in concrete, and our 'free agency' is a ruse -
    2. God sees every point in history, yet without interfering with our free agency. Since he sees it without directly controlling it, he has to see it dynamically; when I sin tomorrow, god, existing outside of the passage of time, is aware of that sin.
    To Him, he is creating the world NOW. To Him, he is being born in a manger NOW. To Him, he is dying on the cross NOW. To Him, he is returning to gather the saints for the last great battle NOW.

    The sobering part of that, as it applies to Christs suffering for our sins, is that when we sin, we add to his suffering immediately. I fail, and Christ, almost two thousand years ago, suffers for that sin the instant I commit it.

    I know that is a difficult concept, because we experience time in a fixed one-dimensional progression. I merely propose that God, the creator of time, experiences it as a totality.

    Man, my head hurts. I need some ovaltine.
  5. 76Highboy

    76Highboy Well-Known Member

    Jan 1, 2012

    I hope the ovaltine helped Terry. So, how do you translate Gen: 1 27-31? How do you differentiate the sixth days creation from Adams formation on the earth. This is where I am stumped.

    Thanks for the help Terry and send me some ovaltine please.
  6. ka64

    ka64 Well-Known Member

  7. 76Highboy

    76Highboy Well-Known Member

    Jan 1, 2012
    So true.
  8. RunningOnMT

    RunningOnMT New Member

    Nov 19, 2008
    Akron, Ohio
    There's no debate on one point. The Bible says on the seventh day GOD rested. So clearly the highlighted comment can't be true.
  9. jack404

    jack404 Former Guest

    Jan 11, 2010
    ka64 yeah but he had a flashier name then ..

    i always thought that the reference to mankiknd before adam showed we are all waiting to exist and this displaces reincarnation as not possible ,

    and how we are all unique souls and potentially all saints if you will
  10. carver

    carver Moderator Supporting Member

    27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

    28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

    29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

    30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

    31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

    Them = Adam, and Eve.
  11. Like most logic problems, the issue is illusory - he died "for" our sins, in the original language, could have (probably should have) been translated, "he died because we are sinful". I.e., it is our sinful character that caused us to torture and kill that guy. In other words, it's not about atonement or expiation. Shame, fear, and guilt are not a part of the liberation of Christ. Instead, the crucifixion is about love: no matter what we, eaters of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, did to that guy, his only response to us was a reflection of God's unconditional love, compassion, and mercy. He's up there dying on the cross in agony, and he's got compassion for us, because "we know not what we do"!!! As Paul said, the "chierographon", journal, book of misdeeds and demerits, or whatever, has been nailed to the cross and no longer exists. Daddy is simply not keeping track of "sin" - that's Santa's job ("He sees you when you're sleeping...", and, "He's making a list, checking it twice...").

    Jesus himself states his understanding of the events of that day by incorporating Psalm 22 by the use of the first line, "My God, my God, oh, why have you forsaken me?". And if you look toward the last part of that psalm, you find that he knows the purpose of his intentional act of submission to the will of man: a generation yet unborn shall hear of Your saving grace.

    It worked, didn't it?
  12. 76Highboy

    76Highboy Well-Known Member

    Jan 1, 2012
    Ya I know, that is a typo. I meant 8th, or after the 8th. Sorry.
  13. ampaterry

    ampaterry *TFF Admin Staff Chaplain* Staff Member Supporting Member

    Dec 20, 2008
    West Tennessee
    An old question is "Can God creat a rock so big that even He cannot lift it?"

    I believe the answer is no; it is not possible for God to be limited by his own creation.
    And this extends to time and space.
    He did not create a distance so far that he cannot span it.
    And He did not create our perception of the passage of time and in so doing trap himself into that same linear progression.

    God is omnipresent; and that is taken as being everywhere at once.
    Considering time as the fourth dimension, it would be proper to say that He is everywhen at once as well.
  14. RunningOnMT

    RunningOnMT New Member

    Nov 19, 2008
    Akron, Ohio
    +1 The infinite is a tough concept for finite beings to comprehend. I thought of a way to demonstrate that graphically. This might help someone.

    I think of it like a standard target, with a bullseye and concentric rings around it. Events are illustrated by radial lines extending out from the center point like rays of light. To order these events we start at some arbitray point, say 12 o'clock, then count the intervals between one ray and the next going around the circle clockwise. That's how we see events occuring chronologically.

    Now each of these rays would extend out to the same single ring we call infinity. God sees all events as simultaneous events in eternity where we see them incrementally. If that makes sense.
  15. ampaterry

    ampaterry *TFF Admin Staff Chaplain* Staff Member Supporting Member

    Dec 20, 2008
    West Tennessee
    Makes perfect sense, ROMT - and thank you for another illustration of this concept - which is, absolutely, difficult to comprehend by beings such as we are, trapped into this linear progression -
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