Bio-Fuel ......

Discussion in 'The Fire For Effect and Totally Politically Incorr' started by JohnHenry, Oct 29, 2011.

  1. jstgsn

    jstgsn Well-Known Member

    Nov 1, 2009
    Milford, Delaware
    thank them when you flush your toilet four times. (makes you a 4-flusher).

    I'm from the government and here to help...

    Run away. Run away.

  2. Bobitis

    Bobitis Guest

    I don't see bio-fuel and ethanol as equals. Far from it. This article puts 'em in the same bag and it's pretty gross.

    In our country, ethanol is made from one source. Corn. In that vane, the link is correct. Sugar beets would be a far better choice, and wouldn't compromise the food chain. Why corn? Because it punishes.

    Bio-fuel can be made from any number of items. Dead aninmals, algea, garbage, etc. The source of the fuel is pretty much... everything.

    I gotta ask why the government supports sacrificeing food for fuel, when they don't support using trash for the same outcome.

    Ethanol and bio-fuel are not equal.
  3. wsas7816

    wsas7816 New Member

    Oct 15, 2011
    San Francisco, CA
    My two cents: I have made biodiesel in the past using waste fryer fat from restaurants and ran an older Mercedes Diesel for about 50,000 miles on B99. The rendering plant in San Francisco powers their diesel equipment with biodiesel made from their own stock of dead things. I have read that Tyson poultry farms does the same. I am not sure what blend the businesses use. Diesel-using public transit in SF uses B20. Biodiesel has about 90% of the BTUS of fossil diesel and a better cetane rating so performance is nearly the same. The gel point (depending on base product) is much higher than fossil diesel so that is a problem in colder areas. When made from waste product Biodiesel is terrific. There has been some success in making it with algae as well. I am less enthusiastic about Biodiesel from food crops. Lastly, I can't imagine enough Biodiesel being made to effect our Petroleum use unless there are some advancements in non-food crop yields.

    Ethanol is a very different product ... low in BTU's and inefficiently made when corn is the base. Brazil does make quite a lot of Ethanol (from Sugar Cane, I think), and I have read their source is much more effecient for making Ethanol. But as far as I can tell Ethanol in an inferior transportation fuel.
  4. hunter29180

    hunter29180 Well-Known Member

    just a point for a FYI, this is talked about on a RV forum I am a member of. all diesel fuel for road use has a dye in it. states collecting roaduse taxes on diesel sometimes test diesel at weigh stations and rest stops for presence of this dye. A RV'er supposly charged $500.00 in Virgina? for his tank not showing the dye. He had a bumper sticker saying he used only pure Bio-fuel. his exhaust did smell like french fries...police fined him for using "untaxed" fuel on federal and state roadways........his tank was a 100 gal tank so fined $5.00 for each gallon his tank was able to carry.
  5. 300 H&H

    300 H&H Active Member

    Apr 1, 2007
    In my state the off road diesel is the stuff with red dye in it, the for road use fuel is nearly clear.

    Ethanol is in your fuel to help with emmisions. It replaced MTBE that was carcenagenic, and badly poluted ground water across the westeren states.

    Bio fuels are in the refinement stages, and with time will become important as a fuel replacement.

    Regards, Kirk
  6. wsas7816

    wsas7816 New Member

    Oct 15, 2011
    San Francisco, CA
    @hunter29180 ... sort of the same rules in California, fuels that have no road tax added are dyed (so you can buy Marine Diesel, Off-road diesel, diesel for equipemnt, generators etc and pay no road tax). Biodiesel, when sold by a retailer and not for Marine/Off-Road etc., is fully taxed whether B5 or B100. The home-brewers have been nabbed by the tax man. Though if they can proved they paid road tax for their estimated use there is no problem. The fuel I used in the car was professionally made and sold at a Biodiesel station. When I made Biodiesel it was part of a Community College course.
  7. Millwright

    Millwright Well-Known Member

    Jun 30, 2005
    Fuel dyes are standard, per USDOT/USEPA regs ! Mostly they exist to delineate "off road" - red-dyed/untaxed - from road taxed fuels . But other dyes are emerging to delineate low sulphur and ultra-low sulphur content fuels, (again per USDOT regs) ! (Blue and Green, but I can't say for certain which is which.) IOW, your government at work !

    I'll dispute your contention ethanol is intended to "help emmissions" ! Its primary purpose was to help politicians recover from the MTBE disaster they -at the insistence of the "green weenies" - endorsed !

    All of this satire is not to say American ingenuity and inventiveness - if loosed from government reins - can't create more/better ways of creating better/cleaner motor fuels ! No one has yet managed to develop a better system to turn chemical energy into work than the ICE. What needs doing is creation of better fuels tailored to more efficient combustion/mechanical designs ! >MW
  8. howlnmad

    howlnmad Well-Known Member Supporting Member

    Nov 26, 2008
    Harriman, Tn
    I can't count the number of times I've had fuel samples taken at weigh stations. Even had a Virginia officer stop me along the interstate to take one.
    I hate the bio-diesel. It plays hell on fuel filters and if it sits long enough it will grow algae.
  9. wsas7816

    wsas7816 New Member

    Oct 15, 2011
    San Francisco, CA
    @howlnmad: Sorry to read of your Bio-diesel troubles. I have had no fuel filter issues with Bio-diesel. The fuel I get has growth inhibitors and preservatives mixed with it ... same as with standard diesel fuel and probably the same "stuff" that goes in the boats diesel tank.
  10. al45lc

    al45lc Active Member

    Mar 8, 2010
    colorful colorado
    Don't buy into the nonsense that ethanol helps emissions, it's poor performance as a fuel actually hurts as it requires more product burnt for equivelent mileage of high quality straight gasoline.
    It's political, and impractical. It's a scam, pure and simple.
  11. 300 H&H

    300 H&H Active Member

    Apr 1, 2007
    I hate to say it but you folks are pathetic...

    Look up MTBE and find the story. Ethanol is solely mandated for it's reduction in harmfull emmisions caused by pertoleum when it is burnt. When ethanol is burnt it releases CO2 and water. That is all the ellements it has in it. It was not to improve your pathetic milage at all. Never said it would. Cannn't cause the chemistry/energy density is not there.

    Go ahead and pollute the rest of the countries ground water with MTBE. Better yet, run for congress and change the law if it is that important to you. Just quit bitching about it. For now at least it is the law. Get used to it.

    Tired of this crap,

  12. hunter29180

    hunter29180 Well-Known Member

    "This is Scotty..Beam me up?...Please??":eek::)
  13. jack404

    jack404 Former Guest

    Jan 11, 2010
    Compared with conventional unleaded gasoline, ethanol is a particulate-free burning fuel source that combusts with oxygen to form carbon dioxide, water and aldehydes. Gasoline produces 2.44 CO2 equivalent kg/l and ethanol 1.94.[69] Since ethanol contains 2/3 of the energy per volume as gasoline, ethanol produces 19% more CO2 than gasoline for the same energy. The Clean Air Act requires the addition of oxygenates to reduce carbon monoxide emissions in the United States. The additive MTBE is currently being phased out due to ground water contamination, hence ethanol becomes an attractive alternative additive. Current production methods include air pollution from the manufacturer of macronutrient fertilizers such as ammonia.
    A study by atmospheric scientists at Stanford University found that E85 fuel would increase the risk of air pollution deaths relative to gasoline by 9% in Los Angeles, USA: a very large, urban, car-based metropolis that is a worst case scenario.[70] Ozone levels are significantly increased, thereby increasing photochemical smog and aggravating medical problems such as asthma.[71][72]

    Ethanol contains soluble and insoluble contaminants.[30] These soluble contaminants, halide ions such as chloride ions, have a large effect on the corrosivity of alcohol fuels. Halide ions increase corrosion in two ways; they chemically attack passivating oxide films on several metals causing pitting corrosion, and they increase the conductivity of the fuel. Increased electrical conductivity promotes electric, galvanic, and ordinary corrosion in the fuel system.

    Soluble contaminants, such as aluminum hydroxide, itself a product of corrosion by halide ions, clog the fuel system over time.

    Ethanol is hygroscopic, meaning it will absorb water vapor directly from the atmosphere. Because absorbed water dilutes the fuel value of the ethanol (although it suppresses engine knock) and may cause phase separation of ethanol-gasoline blends, containers of ethanol fuels must be kept tightly sealed. This high miscibility with water means that ethanol cannot be efficiently shipped through modern pipelines, like liquid hydrocarbons, over long distances.[31] Mechanics also have seen increased cases of damage to small engines, in particular, the carburetor, attributable to the increased water retention by ethanol in fuel.[32]
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2011
  14. 300 H&H

    300 H&H Active Member

    Apr 1, 2007
    And this changes what?

    It's the law, and congress mandates it's use.

    All the kings horses and all the kings men cann't change this, unless the law is changed.

    Like I said, get used to it. Or change the law.

    Regards, Kirk