Brief review on project Archangel???

Discussion in 'General Military Arms & History Forum' started by ysacres, Mar 7, 2003.

  1. ysacres

    ysacres Well-Known Member

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    WyomingSwede
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 587
    (10/20/02 9:01:06 am)
    Reply Brief review on Project Archangel???
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    We are looking pretty dry here guys...I recall a thread a while back on Project Archangel. Something about US forces occupying a russian port before the Czar fell? I have not found any references that go into any detail. Polish I believe you are the resident expert on this one??? Anyone with input please advise. swede
    Wyoming Swede

    kdub01
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 1340
    (10/20/02 1:25:46 pm)
    Reply Re: Brief review on Project Archangel???
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    As I recall, Swede -

    British and American forces were assembled in England to "protect" military equipage sent to Russia by the WWI allies.

    Even went so far as to take away the rifles and reissue the force with American made Mosin-Nagants.

    The British were in overall charge and really pulled some boneheaded moves, trying to wring the last vestiges of glory and promotions for themselves at war's end. Only thing, the British troops sent were convalesents and other unfit for combat soldiers. The Americans supplied a regiment of fresh troops. The British leaders tended to send these and the French and Italian congingents to do the front line fighting, keeping their own troops, for political purposes, in the rear echelons. There was a mutiny by the French and the White Russian troops during this episode, due to service past the Armistice and desire to go home and avoid the Russian winter conditions.

    There was actual combat between the Red Russian forces and the American troops. This is why ol' Nikita Kruchev was upset at the famous "Kitchen Debates" with VP Nixon - his question "We have never invaded your country, yet you have invaded ours - why?" was because of this little known chapter in American military history. Most people at the time didn't have the foggiest idea of what he was talking about.
    "Keep Off The Ridgeline"

    Xracer
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 2898
    (10/21/02 8:10:48 am)
    Reply Re: Brief review on Project Archangel???
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    I think you're referring to the American Expiditionary Force Siberia.

    www.militaria.com/8th/WW1/siberia.html

    www.worldwar1.com/dbc/p_bears.htm (note the picture of American sailors with Moison-Nagents)

    Edited by: Xracer at: 10/21/02 9:11:36 am

    kdub01
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 1345
    (10/21/02 11:24:13 am)
    Reply Re: Brief review on Project Archangel???
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    Nope -

    I'm refering to the military expedition that entered thru Arch Angel and Murmansk and fought in western Russia.
    "Keep Off The Ridgeline"

    warpig883
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 5049
    (10/21/02 12:31:06 pm)
    Reply
    Re: Brief review on Project Archangel???
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    It is in the above link kdub. The second link tells all about what you are talking about I do believe.


    WyomingSwede
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 589
    (10/23/02 5:42:44 pm)
    Reply Re: Brief review on Project Archangel???
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    Cool...thanks guys. swede
    Wyoming Swede

    polishshooter
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    Posts: 3701
    (11/8/02 9:35:37 pm)
    Reply Re: Brief review on Project Archangel???
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    Actually there were two "invasions" with US troops, both in 1919. One was through Archangel, under British command (Who recently said "NO US TROOPS WILL EVER FIGHT UNDER FOREIGN COMMAND!"....they already HAVE, many times) ostensibly to protect allied war supplies from falling to the Reds, and they actually saw some pretty heavy fighting, in the winter too, and did pretty well, in fact one time the doughboys counterattacked at a town the Brits had just been kicked out of by the Cossacks, and took it back with some pretty hard street fighting, and held it until the Spring, and then we just pulled out, but overall morale was low, they had little support from home, no supplies, and they never knew REALLY what they were there for.

    The Siberian expedition was meant to help the "Czech Brigade" that had fought with the Russians against the Austrians in the South (Eastern Front), but after the Revolution refused to go Red and were fighting their way East, pretty much across the route of the Siberian railway, living off the land, and causing alot of international interest, but all that expedition did was establish a beachhead, and wait, didn't fight or engage the Reds, and the Czech Brigade was eventually wiped out, then they picked up and left, no real direction to the (American) commander what he was supposed to do, so he sat on his hands, unlike the British commander with about the same confusing general orders in Archangel, who showed SOME initiative and fought the Reds.

    It really WAS our first "Vietnam..." which is why nobody paid attention..but there is pretty good anecdotal evidence now that if we WOULD HAVE supported the expedition,and ordered it to fight the Reds, we just MAY have nipped Communism right in the bud, saved Russia, and avoided 70 some years of hell on earth....which with a then strong relationship with a FREE Russia, may have really deterred Hitler....so that MAY have been the 20th Century's greatest "missed opportunities..."

    "Don't hear him call you an ---hole, hear WHY he's calling you an ---hole." -------- From "A Season on the Brink"

    polishshooter
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3702
    (11/8/02 9:48:51 pm)
    Reply Re: Brief review on Project Archangel???
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    And oh yeah, the US Siberian expedition was pretty much outfitted as standard GI, 03s and M1917 Enfields...

    The Archangle Expedition was a different story...the doughboys were issued Remington and Westinghouse Mosin Nagant M91s, all marked "1917" that were made under contract for the Czar, but never delivered because of the Revolution. The US government had "bailed out" those companies by buying the Mosins they built and intending to use them as training rifles, but after the war ended they thought they would get some use out of them, and since the whole operation was on a shoestring, they thought the Doughboys could just use captured Russian ammo when they ran out...probably not a bad idea even if we DID intend to supply them, because few ships would have gotten through to them in Winter anyway...

    Interestingly I read an article that said the doughboys HATED the Mosin Nagants at first, because supposedly the US bolts were made to tighter tolerances, and froze up quickly in the Winter. But then they fixed the problem by throwing away the "quality" US made bolts in their rifles and using bolts from captured Russian rifles that worked fine.

    Something about they preferred to have a rifle stamped "Made in USA," so they didn't use the WHOLE captured rifle, just the bolt...

    Which is another reason why I never worry about shooting "mismatched" bolts on a Mosin...

    ...and I'm waiting for the next batch of US made M91s with Century import stamps to show up at SOG with Russian bolts...

    "Don't hear him call you an ---hole, hear WHY he's calling you an ---hole." -------- From "A Season on the Brink"

    kdub01
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 1467
    (11/8/02 11:53:56 pm)
    Reply Re: Brief review on Project Archangel???
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    Polish - the incarnate "Mossie" Man!!!
    "Keep Off The Ridgeline"

    Xracer
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 2975
    (11/9/02 8:55:39 am)
    Reply Re: Brief review on Project Archangel???
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    Great to see ya back, Polish!
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