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Bush & the Posse Comitatus Act

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by pickenup, Oct 5, 2005.

  1. pickenup

    pickenup Active Member

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    Bush has asked congress to repeal the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878, which basically prevents the military from using police powers against civilians inside the United States. (except under certain conditions. ie. the armed forces have authority to provide humanitarian relief, and to quell insurrections, as well as the authority to defend themselves if fired upon)

    He first hinted of this on Sept. 15 in his televised address to the nation, using the aftermath of hurricane Katrina as an excuse to try to get this through congress.

    His proposal has stirred opposition across the political spectrum, prompting BOTH conservative and liberal activists to line up AGAINST any move that would empower U.S. troops to shoot or arrest civilians in the event of national emergencies. (is there a definitive list for exactly what constitutes a national emergency? Who makes the rules here, and what are they?) MANY figures in authority, different groups, and so-called experts, have UNITED with the politicians, against this proposal. (imagine that)

    So many in fact, that now Bush has changed his tactics (reason) for trying to get this through congress. NOW he says that he “might” need to call on the military to “quarantine” a given area, in case of an outbreak of the flu.

    Does anyone else see the implications of completely throwing out the Posse Comitatus Act? Which could, by the way, bypass using the National Guard altogether?

    I admit, I don’t have a tin foil hat (or is that aluminum foil that it is supposed to be made out of?) Anyway, gonna have to get me one of those things.
  2. 358 winchester

    358 winchester *TFF Admin Staff*

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    There are some scary things going on in this country! I just don't trust the folks that run our country to do what is best for us! I voted for Bush and I feel that the man has done a fair job considering all that our nation has gone through in the last few years. I am also concerned with what we will be facing the next 3 to 7 years. There are people in high government poisons that just don't care about the normal every day American citizen. We the backbone of America are being pushed aside and treated as second class or maybe third rate,Why. Because we have let them do it. It is time to say No to some of this and stand up to the folks that we elected when they do wrong. the real sad thing about it is most of our children are to busy trying to make ends meet to notice that they are loosing the rights to live a free life.
    Can we continue to just ignore what is happening and hope for some one else to step forward? Will it do any good to dig a hole to hid in? what will happen when there isn't any food in the stores, because the truckers can't afford to operate? when the nurses and technicians can't afford to drive to work? when the mill worker just can't take it any longer?
    I don't have the answer but I do know that every day we are closer to having some MAJOR upsets in this country and it is scary as hell.
    Now I need to go buy more dried beans and reloading components before I run out of money buying Gas.
    PS wanted an old 12 volt generator and a wind mill :confused: :D ;)
    OK I am finished but it was PICKENUP that got me started. :eek: :p ;)
  3. 1952Sniper

    1952Sniper New Member

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    This idea of using the military to quarantine areas of the country for the flu has had me very upset since yesterday when I first heard it. Picture this in your mind, if you will...

    The flu has hit some countries pretty hard, especially Asian countries where people live all cramped together. Just like the SARS "epidemic" a while back. People start dying. It spreads to America with about a dozen cases reported in, say, St. Louis. The military, acting under the President, quickly isolates St. Louis. They set up an armed perimeter around the city, including machine gun nests, razor wire, and watch towers. Sounds like a concentration camp, eh? Unfortunately, you were in St. Louis at the time on business. Now you're trapped there. You're not sick. You haven't even been exposed to the same areas of the city as the people who are sick. But you're trapped anyway. Your "benevolent" government has seen to it. It's for your own good, you know. Since you don't have a home in St. Louis, you cannot isolate yourself from the rest of the city. You must find places to eat. After a short amount of time, you will be likely to become infected as well.

    The Feds are treating us more and more like cattle every day. In essence, they will treat the CITIZENS of this nation the exact same way as they treat herds of cattle when a case of "mad cow disease" pops up. The next step, of course, is mass euthanization of entire cities in order to "contain" the diseases.

    This is a bad precedent, folks. It's blatantly unconstitutional (not that anyone cares about that anymore) and it's bad for liberty (no one cares about that anymore either, apparently). It empowers the Federal government to contain us in "camps" at gunpoint.

    The very fact that this is even being discussed in America makes me shudder. Bush has made some pretty bold steps toward tyranny, but this is over the top. History shows us that every two-bit dictator in history has started out by using his military forces to control the citizens. And Bush is now showing his true colors. He is nothing more than a wannabe dictator.

    No offense to my fellow board members, but it galls me that people can still support this man. To give him any support at this point only serves to destroy what's left of our once great republic.
  4. Carl S

    Carl S New Member

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    Unlike Sniper, I don't believe Bush is a wannabe dictator. And I am firmly convinced that he is a far better choice than Kerry! Kerry was/is a traitor. That said I certainly do not agree with everything Bush has done.

    I am against any tampering with the Posse Comitatus Act whatsoever. I grew knowing folks who could remember military rule in the South. We do not need to ever go there again. There already is a mechanism provided by law for the President to use Federal troops within a state to enforce law. Fortunately, by design, the law is not easy to implement because of political fallout. That makes a President wary of invoking it, which is a very good thing.

    Sniper, I support Bush because he is, by far, the better man of the two candidates from which I had to chose. There was no provision on my ballot for "None of the above". Kerry and the leftist Dems and national level scare me far worse than does Bush. You asked how I can still support him; there is your answer. So far Bush has made no moves to infringe on Second Amendment rights and the few Dem attempts to do so have gone nowhere. Do you think that would be the same under (shudder) President Kerry?
  5. 1952Sniper

    1952Sniper New Member

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    Why do you people always invoke Kerry when anyone criticizes Bush?

    *bangs head against brick wall*

    You DO realize there were more than two people running for President, right? Criticism of Bush does not equal support for Kerry or the Democrats. I wish I could get that through your head. That seems to be the typical Republican answer to everything, when confronted with criticism of Bush. "But Kerry would have been worse!"

    How could you NOT believe Bush is a wannabe dictator? He has followed almost EXACTLY in the footsteps of such great dictators in history as Stalin, Hitler, etc. I think it's high time that Republicans around the country stopped acting like ostriches and pulled their heads out of the sand to see what's really going on here.

    Does the Constitution mean nothing to you?

    Sorry for the seemingly harsh responses, but geez. Our nation under Bush has made some real leaps and bounds toward tyranny of its own people. Step back and look at what Bush is doing and ask yourself if our founding fathers would have supported it. As yourself if it fits the Constitution. Ask yourself if you think liberty is best served. How can anyone look at what Bush is doing and answer yes to any of these questions? We are literally trashing America under this one President. I don't know if he's the driving force behind it or just the puppet that's carrying out someone else's agenda. But he's definitely responsible for the absolute raping of our Constitution. It's worse under him than any President I can think of, even Lincoln. I'm sitting here watching our way of life unravel, and you Republican Bush supporters are sitting there applauding.
  6. LIKTOSHOOT

    LIKTOSHOOT Advanced Senior Member

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    Far be it from me to support some of the things that have gone on, I don`t label myself as a Republican. I am a conservative and I vote on three sides of the fence. While Sniper will always take a shot at Bush given any chance to do so and claim folks are being lead blindly down a path. I submit most admit Bush isn`t the answer to all things and don`t just turn a blind eye as told. This perception follows along the bunker buddy thinking at best. Run-hide-I told you so. A few around here are free thinkers, believe it or not. And yes it does have merit when someone mentions the other choices, Gore-Kerry and what would life be like. If a Libertarian canadate could get past the drug legalization crap, he would gather my vote as many did the last time round. The two party system needs to be three party(thats how I vote) and it may happen this time around. I have slammed Bush and the NRA for years for their do nothing or give in approach and it`s always Hip_Hip-HORAY!! NRA. Now you want to talk about the blind leading the blind......NRA supporters are the #1 with Bush blinding #2.

    So are you the only one that says I told you so(Sniper) I hardly think so and if you do, it is the height of arrogance.


    LTS
  7. Carl S

    Carl S New Member

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    Sniper, for all intents and purposes there were only two candidates running. I voted against Kerry. I was not going to throw my vote away on a third party candidate when there was such a marked difference between Bush and the Soros endorsed Kerry. Had a number of us voted Libertarian, it would be President Kerry today. You seem to fail to understand that.

    Following in the footsteps of Stalin and Hitler is a gross exaggeration, not consistant with history, and made out of pure emotion; and I'm sure you realize that. For the record, I am not a Republican. I am an independent and a strict constitutional constructionist. The alternative was Kerry. Would you rather see Kerry make two appointments to the Supreme Court and fill several lower federal court vacancies? That is the alternative. It is you that needs to pull your head of the sand and realize that this is a system stacked in favor of the two party system. One can cut off one's nose to spite one's face. A third party can, a best, swing an election and that's about it.

    Indeed it does. Please see my response above.

    My response was pretty harsh also and it is because both of us feel very strongly about the direction the nation is headed. And both of us see that direction in the same light. We differ as to the solution to the problem. In reality, the nation has been heading toward socialism and tyranny since FDR became president. Talk about tyranny, look at the powers FDR had under the War Powers Act. The Partiot Act is mild compared to the War Powers Act. No, I do not like the Patriot Act either. The country is no worse under Bush than under the Clinton administration. The problem for me is that it is not much better either.
  8. berto64

    berto64 Active Member

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    If we as citizens allow any changes or repeal of Posse Comitatus, we are throwing our liberty down the tubes.

    The US will be no different than any third world country with soldiers with automatic weapons patrolling the streets and it WILL be Martial Law Nationwide in no time.

    Notify your senators and representatives to put a halt to this happy horse $hit.

    And sniper, just for your benefit.............It would have already been tried if SKERRY had won!
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2005
  9. Huck Finn

    Huck Finn Member

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    It's funny how republicans have an amazing ability to see the future and to know exactly what would have happened had John Kerry won. But yet they couldn't see the Patriot Act, or Bush promising to sign the AWB extention or now this coming! The people surrounding Bush have gotten very good at deflecting the attention off of GW every time something comes up. Speaking of traitors, has anyone even heard Karl Rove's name lately???? I'm with Sniper on this one. "It would be worse if Kerry was elected" is not an answer.... It's a cop out!
  10. JohnK3

    JohnK3 New Member

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    No more than Democrats claiming to see the future when they claim that if this Republican or that Republican is elected, various dire and horrid events will occur, mostly revolving around racism and fascism, the two favorite tropes of the Democratic Left.

    IE: All conservatives are fascists (when fascisim and Nazism were more Socialist in character than American Conservative) and all Republicans are racist (when it was Democrats who, over the course of history, have done more to propagate and promulgate racist laws and regulations than Republicans)

    Face it, there are wild claims made by all politicians. The Patriot Act was voted for by a huge group of Democrats as well as Republicans. If a Democratic president was in power, I doubt very seriously that the Patriot Act would be repealed on that basis alone. Even if there was a Democratic Congress. The Patriot Act is favored by POLITICIANS. Why? Because it allows them to rule over those whom they see as their inferiors, ie: We the People.

    Want to see more Libertarian candidates actually win elections? Drop the whole "Legalize Drugs" plank in their platform. Instead, replace it with "Education on the dangers of drugs is more cost-effective than a War on Drugs" plank. In other words, most people can point out how drugs are dangerous and harmful, so they won't go for legalization. Tell them they can reduce the dangers and harm by spending the money more wisely and they just might pay attention. Until then, a vote for a Libertarian presidential candidate is a vote for the Democratic candidate.

    Heck, we're still paying for the Spanish American War every time we use the phone.
  11. glocknut

    glocknut New Member

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    All i know is that I'm gonna buy up as much as i can and get ready to die on my feet....

    I've about had it with voting. Choosing between a mohawk or a pixie cut is not what i had in mind !!! Neither party is worth a sh*t...never will be either. At the end of the day human nature always kicks in and messes things up.

    mike
    gn
  12. Ruger.44

    Ruger.44 New Member

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    I'm with mike. Don't trust a damn one of them. Fact is, I voted for Bush. I found it to be one of those "Devil-you-know" kinda deals. I was afraid of Kerry and simply lack confidence in GWB.

    That having been said, Posse Comitatus will not be repealed. The basic idea is rediculous only because the government is already authorized to use the Guard in this capacity. 319,000 Guardsmen is a formitable number. If there was ever a "need" for more than that, I would hope someone would stand up and say "These people must have a reasonable complaint". If GWB wants to try this as a emergency refief type of thing, nail him to the wall. He can use the military ANYWHERE he wants for humanitarian purposes, just not for enforcement.

    I don't think it's going to get far anyway. Just keep your eye on the top and be prepared.

    Jim
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2005
  13. 1952Sniper

    1952Sniper New Member

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    I really don't mean to hijack the thread to the topic of drugs, but I have to address this:

    The Libertarian Party's stance on drugs is not just "legalize them and hope the problem goes away". The only reason people think that, is because Republicans and Democrats keep spouting that BS about the Libertarian Party. It's another classic example of fear tactics and propaganda by the two parties who have the most to lose from seeing a party rise to the forefront that actually respects the Constitution. Here is what the Libertarian Party has to say about drugs:

    So they've already addressed your point. But you are absolutely correct on one thing you said: the American people as a whole don't want drugs legalized. They are comfortable with their government curtailing their liberties. People are sheep and they like being controlled. Americans as a whole do not respect the ideals of liberty, and our current laws reflect that. Until that changes, America will keep sliding down the slippery slope to tyranny. They will keep voting in Democrats and Republicans, both of which are liberal parties bent on total domination and control. If it weren't such a dire situation, it would be comical to see the sheeple of America quibbling over which major party is "right" or "wrong". They're both wrong! There is almost no difference in the parties anymore! They are both screwing us. All this BS about Republicans vs. Democrats is like debating whether you'd rather be mauled by a bear or a buffalo. In the end, it doesn't matter. Both major parties mean disaster for us. Both parties are leading us to the end of what we knew as our Constitutional Republic. I daresay we're already past that point. We're on a train at high speed, headed for the cliff edge, and America is only concerned with which flavor of tea to drink.

    I've seen a lot of people on this board lately who are starting to be uneasy with the things Bush is doing. The Patriot Act. Homeland Security. The REAL ID Act. Revoking Posse Comitatus. Refusing to secure our borders while clamping down in internal travel. How many signs do you need? Carl S, you said, "Following in the footsteps of Stalin and Hitler is a gross exaggeration, not consistant with history, and made out of pure emotion; and I'm sure you realize that." I most certainly DO believe that Bush is following in the footsteps of Hitler and Stalin. The proof is in the pudding, and you're simply refusing to acknowledge it. Just as I'm sure the Germans and Russians did at the time. There is a human desire to disbelieve what's actually happening around you when the signs are grim. But what is it going to take to wake America up and realize that we are turning into the exact kind of nation that we hate? We may have won the Cold War but we have become the enemy!

    Is it going to take armed soldiers on every street corner before you guys believe? Concentration camps? What will it take? They say that those who do not learn from history are destined to repeat it. And that's exactly what we're doing. Wake up, America!
  14. JohnK3

    JohnK3 New Member

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    I'm very aware of the Libertarian Party's official viewpoint on drugs. You just confirmed what I said. It's the "repeal anti-drug laws" position. The education and assistance groups portion is buried in the rest of the platform.

    Libertarians, themselves, keep the perception alive more than Republicans or Democrats. Talk to a Libertarian and you will most likely get them repeating the same paragraph, word-for-word that you just gave us. It's an extremist viewpoint and extremist viewpoints don't win elections. Just ask Howard Dean.

    Win the war a step at a time, rather than by insisting upon an immediate change in the drug laws. Get a candidate that drops the LOSING rhetoric of drug legalization and instead talks about shifting money away from enforcement and towards education. That way, you use incrementalism to get to the ultimate goal.

    The perception that most people have of Libertarians isn't formed by what a Republican or a Democrat told them. It's from meeting a Libertarian who looks and sounds like someone who mainly wants their party to win so they can go take drugs without getting arrested. (BTW: I'm neither Rep. or Dem. As a matter of fact, I vote Libertarian where I can. Just not for President.) Instead of doing something about the poor image, many Libertarians sit there and whine about how they're being portrayed by the nasty ol' two-party system. Until the party figures out the perception issue and starts marketing itself better to the public, they'll keep losing elections.
  15. 1952Sniper

    1952Sniper New Member

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    So you consider it "extremist" to demand liberty and to demand that our government repeal unconstitutional laws?

    No wonder our country is going down the toilet.

    Like I said, and you have just proven my point: Americans are sheep. They like being controlled by government, even with unconstitutional laws. Americans are frightened of real liberty. That disgusts me.
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