C.O.L. .45acp

Discussion in 'The Ammo & Reloading Forum' started by todd51, Dec 29, 2011.

  1. todd51

    todd51 Well-Known Member

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    I need some help with a reload that is having failure to feed problems. The load is a Berry's 200gr. FP, 5.0gr. Bullseye, .469 crimp, and 1.18 COL. The pistol is the new Ruger 1911 but also had a similar problem with the Gold Cup with wimpy loads. Two or three rounds fail to feed out of each mag full whether using the Wilson mags or some of my junk mags. No pattern as to where the round is in the stack. The failed round seems to me to be coming in shallow and is hitting the bottom edge of the barrel. The gap between frame feed ramp and barrel ramp seems to be normal. The failure is shortening the round to 1.17 COL. I bought 1000 of these rascals a while back and would like to solve this problem so I can shoot them up.

    I couldn't find any published data for the Berry's bullet but Sierra has a similar one calling for 1.155 COL and Hornady also has a similar one calling for 1.20 COL. I sort of split the difference but what I am doing isn't working. I never solved the problem with the Gold Cup but was playing with different recoil springs at the time and sort of blamed the problem on that but here it is again with the Ruger.

    Hope you can see the indent on the nose of these two that failed to feed.

    Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

    Todd
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2013
  2. woolleyworm

    woolleyworm Active Member

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    I would recommend making some dummy rounds and increasing the COAL until you get it to feed reliably. I don't have my load records at hand, but I do know that with this same bullet, I had to lengthen it to get it to feed in my P220.
  3. todd51

    todd51 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks worm, that will give me something to do in between football this weekend.
  4. oldgunfan

    oldgunfan New Member

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    I hate to say it but I didn't have good luck with my berry's 200grn 45's either. I didn't have feeding problems though, I had tumbling problems out of my S&W 625jm. my C.O.L was 1.220 so Woollyworm is right (as per normal) just make them a little longer. also I tryed 4.8grns of WST and 5.6grns of W231 same C.O.L and had no feeding problems out of 2 different 1911's or a springer XDM. good luck
  5. LDBennett

    LDBennett Well-Known Member

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    If the feed ramp is done right (??) the top edge of the end of the frame ramp should be above the edge of the chamber ramp and it should not be possible for the nose of the bullet to catch the bottom edge of the chamber.

    Another way to look at it is there should be a small gap on the top of the frame between the forward end of the ramp and the rear edge of the barrel's chamber when the slide is locked back for inspection. That gap should be about 1/32 inch. The feeding round should have to jump from the frame ramp down to the ramp that is part of the barrel. With that arrangement there is no way a bullet can catch the bottom edge of the chamber while feeding.

    Did Ruger do this right? If so then a different part of the chamber is being hit by the incoming round. Is the round slipping out of the extractor? The round is suppose to feed up and under the extractor during feeding. The round should be able to hold tight against the bolt face. The magazine lips have to guide the bullet into the barrel so they have to have a reasonable grip on the cartridge during feeding. So, if the extractor tension is not right (cartridge loose on the bolt face), the magazine lips are not right (don't hang onto cartridge long enough to allow the cartridge to get started feeding right) then you may get failures like you see.

    All that being said, 1911's are know to have problems feeding anything but full round nose bullets (round nose FMJ bullets). Some 1911's are "ramped" to allow conical shaped bullets and even lead wad cutters but often such ramping leads to a large part of the rear of the case being left unsupported with a tendency of the fired case to blow out with hot loads.

    There are specs for magazine lip spacing, extractor tension, extractor shaping on the underside to allow the cartridge rim easy access during feeding. A good 1911 gunsmith can fix the feeding problem but I'd try good round nose FMJ ammo first before paying a gunsmith to tune up the gun and magazines.

    LDBennett
  6. jdon72

    jdon72 New Member

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    Increase your COL to 1.21 and work from there. That should take care of it.

    P-1
  7. carver

    carver Moderator

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    I'm with LD on this one. Ramp problems are the #1 cause of jams in semi-auto pistols.
  8. garydude

    garydude Member

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    Todd, your bullet profile is similar to Hornadys' XTP, and they list them at 1.230' OAL. I would definitely run them out a little longer and see if it helps.
  9. todd51

    todd51 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks all for the help. I did some checking/comparing last night. LD, the frame ramp/chamber ramp relationship seems proper with the proper gap. Placing those faulty rounds in and trying to watch what happens it appears to me that they are just too short and are not getting "tilted" up properly on the frame ramp because of a combination of their short length and flat point profile. I am going to load some dummy rounds like Woolley suggested and start out long and move back to see if I can't find a working length.
    The chamber on the on this barrel looks to have been "relieved" very similar to the barrel on my Gold Cup so hopefully when I get the COL problem solved it will load these flat points reliably.

    I really appreciate the help.
  10. todd51

    todd51 Well-Known Member

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    I loaded up seven dummy rounds today. Before that I checked max length and any thing longer than 1.210 would not head space on the the case rim. I ran them through the pistol as rapidly as I could and never a failure to feed so hopefully that will solve this little problem. Thanks to all for the help and jdon 72 you were spot on.
  11. JLA

    JLA Well-Known Member

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    Id bring em out a tad Todd. Maybe to 1.230 or so. With TC (truncated cone) bullets you are bound by the magazine. too long and the noses wont fit, too wide. so seat em as long as the mag will take them and they should feed fine. This is the ONLY downfall to the TC bullet design.

    I did a thread on TC bullets back when i first started casting them and if you will remember I chased the shortstops all over with the OAL and ended up back where I started. They only wanted to feed both thru the gun and out of the magazine at around 1.230"
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2011
  12. todd51

    todd51 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Josh, I had looked for that thread but couldn't find it but remembered the chase and even loading some dummy rounds and getting the bullet pushed back by the throat when too long. I thought I remember the lengths involved but never found it so I had to ask the question again. Sorry for the trouble. This Berry bullet is has a short fat nose on it, much shorter than Rainier bullets of the same style. Just want to shoot them up and not go with them any more.
  13. JLA

    JLA Well-Known Member

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    I looked for it too todd. It must be buried pretty deep. Im fairly certain your problems will disappear with an OAL somewhere between 1.220 and 1.230
  14. todd51

    todd51 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Josh, I will load some more dummies tomorrow at the 1.23 length and see what happens. When I tried today any thing longer than 1.21 would stick in the barrel throat and not let the case head space on the case mouth leaving the case head sticking proud of the barrel hood. What bullet profile were you working on in that other test? I don't remember but for some reason 1.262 sticks in my mind and I don't know where it is coming from. But I remember what ever longer length was tried it just pushed the bullet back in the case thus giving the max over all length that could be used. That 1.262 may be just a figment of my imagination. Later.
  15. JLA

    JLA Well-Known Member

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    Same design. Trucated cone. Mine were just cast lead and 230 gr instead of 200 gr.

    1.232" is the figure youre thinkin of. its the longest i tried.
  16. garydude

    garydude Member

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  17. JLA

    JLA Well-Known Member

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    Hey todd check post# 15 in that link gary posted above. You were right. I did test them as long as 1.260"

    How far back did you dig for that one GD? I went back a ways but must have skipped over it.
  18. todd51

    todd51 Well-Known Member

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    Well I have milked this for about all it is worth. The unique profile of the Berry's bullet will just not let me extend the COL beyond 1.21 or it sticks in the throat. I tried it in the Gold Cut and could get by with 1.22 before it stuck. I loaded the dummies at 1.27 and ran them through the two pistols. It pushed the bullet in the Ruger back to 1.21 and in the Gold Cup back to 1.217. I got out some Rainier TC FP 200gr and they will easily go 1.23 and feed reliably so just more evidence the profile on the squat stubby Berry's is giving me the problem. You can see the difference in profile in the photo. I will load up some and try them next range trip. If they still are stubborn I will just load them in .45 Colt and fire them off in one of the revolvers. Thanks again for putting up with me and also for all you help.
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2013
  19. thomas44

    thomas44 New Member

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    Call me lazy, or whatever, but I finally just went with 230 gr. hardball. After pulling a couple hundred bullets (Berry's 200 grain) I took the easier way. I was thinking I had better luck with these bullets feeding through a 1911, but in my full size XD, I'm lucky to get two rounds in a row to feed. I did try a longer overall length, but to no avail. The 230's shoot great in my XD anyway, so all is well.
  20. JLA

    JLA Well-Known Member

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    Hey todd. You gonna be able to use them up?
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