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Calibers ( 1 2 )

Discussion in 'Informational & Technical Archives' started by ruffitt, Feb 24, 2003.

  1. ruffitt

    ruffitt *TFF Admin Staff* In Heaven Now

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    caliber9x19
    Member
    Posts: 1
    (3/13/02 5:18:15 pm)
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    Hi!

    Can anyone explain me, why in USA are so popular 10mm
    guns ? I think 9mm is enougth for self-defence gun. I am
    newbie in this think..
    I heard that they 10mm bulits are more stabilty and of course they have more penetration ability.. But still, 9mm is enougth. So, why Americans choose big guns, then rest of the world is using 9mm ?




    rayra
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 254
    (3/13/02 5:41:45 pm)
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    Because Americans tend to want to kill those who are attacking us, not wound them??

    10mm / .40 really only comes up in a few Federal and Police issue firearms. I don't think it's use is really as widespread as you think.

    .45ACP is MUCH more widespread.

    I'd rather shoot a bullet that's 20% larger in frontal area, AND twice the weight (.45 vs 9mm), if I have to shoot at all.

    Edited by: rayra at: 3/13/02 5:42:25 pm

    TallTLynn
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3427
    (3/13/02 5:46:30 pm)
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    ezSupporter
    Re: Calibers
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    Because we can.

    It's very simple really if you look at it. We have the right to choose what weapon we wish to use. I for one prefer 30-06, .303, 8mm or 7mm-08. All of which are probablly overkill (oh wait I forgot 7.62x39).

    In handguns 9mm is okay, but 45acp is better (maybe not as accurate but I enjoy those as well).

    This is a nation of choices - why should we have to have only one caliber? And why should it be what you or other countries consider the one to use?

    Smoky14
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 80
    (3/13/02 6:00:54 pm)
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    We have a tendency to think that bigger is better, and with exceptions, it is.

    Welcome aboard

    AGunguy
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 1519
    (3/13/02 6:04:51 pm)
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    9 mm is not a serious defense caliber in the estimation of a lot of us here in the USA.

    When someone is drugged up, drunk, trying to do you bodily harm do you really want a 9 mm?

    A .45 will keep you alive.

    A .44 will put 'em on the floor.

    Gunguy

    warpig883
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 2762
    (3/13/02 7:55:17 pm)
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    Size matters?


    Geez don't tell my better half






    I guess a 9mm would be ok for shooting at cans but for self defense why not use a real buddit. .45ACP for me.
    Just a ramblin' man

    BlackGun
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 3432
    (3/13/02 9:08:43 pm)
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    Well being from Texas, what can I say! By the way welcome to TFF! Big is better
    We buy guns! email us with what you have to offer!


    BlackGUN

    Bob In St Louis
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 1991
    (3/13/02 9:36:43 pm)
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    I kinda like the 9x23 (9mm Largo to youse guys!)
    Crusty Cruffler of Fine Spanish Pistols - Eibar Rules!

    SW Man
    Member
    Posts: 35
    (3/13/02 10:53:55 pm)
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    How about what the experts think? from an older S&W catalog, when 9mm's were the thing, their expert had an article about calibers for self defense and he said that anything smaller than a 38 special was too small for self defense, including the 9mm.

    Personally, I believe in the good ole 457 Magnum, will do all necessary.

    This actually happened in a town near where I liver. City police officer shot a perp eight times in center mass(chest) with 9mm Hydra shoks from a glock with a 4" barrel. The cops DOG took the perp down. Need more be said?
    The second admendment GUARANTEES the Constitution and the other nine.

    weaver302
    Member
    Posts: 1
    (3/13/02 10:55:24 pm)
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    First of all, when did the 10mm get ''so popular''? Did I miss a meeting? the 10mm being widely popular would be a dream of mine (being a huge fan and proponent) but it just aint so. Just looking at the price and availability of ammo will show that the 9mm is 10x more popular than the venerable 10mm. If you post was written in reference to the .45 vs. 9mm, it would have made more sence. I would still have dissagreed, but it would have been a valid question. To answer your question though, we choose the 10mm, .45, .44, etc, because we read to many stories like: "Man shoots attacker 5 times with .38, attacker apprehended the next day" or "man killed my large dog after shooting it numerous times with a small calliber pistol".

    Besides, I can hunt with it if i have to. I can consistantly hit man sized targets at 100yards with around 500ft/lbs of energy on target..can you say that about a 9mm?

    Edited by: weaver302 at: 3/14/02 1:23:11 am

    Alphamale
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 738
    (3/13/02 11:37:24 pm)
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    what country are you from caliber9x19?

    why a 10 over a 9? more energy, bigger hole. besides, the 9mm holds the world record right now for most shots before a perp went down. The bg got shot 32 or 33 times with 9mm before going down. Not the best record for a self defense caliber.
    Pardon me while I burst into flames. I've had enough of the world and its people's mindless games---Incubus

    needleace
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 127
    (3/14/02 8:25:19 am)
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    ezSupporter
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    Caliber9x19-
    Just have to throw my .02 in since the discussion is on the 10mm (my favorite). The above feedback are quite true; the ballistics regarding stopping power and damage, are greater in the 10mm. A good article 2 weeks ago in Shotgun News pertaining to the Witness 10mm briefly hits on this. The popularity of the round came around in the early '80's with
    Miami Vice and the Bren Ten (an American made CZ/Witness-like gun chambered in 10mm for Don Johnson). The father of modern handgunning, Jeff Cooper, dubbed the weapon "best of breed". It took off. The manufacturer couldn't keep up with the orders. It actuallly turned out to be poorly maufactured,
    had no replacement parts for repair, broke often, and even had trouble getting enough magazines for the guns made. For more info on the 10mm there is a link site www.packing.org that has- the 10mm page- listed
    in their links. I personally think the 9mm is OK for home defense if you're fairly accurate. I wouldn't want a hot round going thru a wall and killing one of the kids. But on the street,
    I would opt for somewhat more punch.
    -ace

    caliber9x19
    Member
    Posts: 2
    (3/14/02 8:29:06 am)
    | Edit | Del First of all, thanks for all answers.
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    For my opinion, in self-defence situations the point is
    to resist attack, not shooting to death. I live in Finland
    and if you had wounded someone even for clear
    self-defence, it will mean you very big troubles.
    Of couse if it is die-or-live situation, you can always shoot deathly points, like haed, heart. And if you have even small experience with shooting, you can hit the target, and 9mm will kill that for sure. Because in normal self-defence situations shooting rage is 10-15 m for cops and i think for normal citizens,it is much smaller.



    Xracer
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 1841
    (3/14/02 8:43:28 am)
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    Hi 9x19.....and Welcome to TFF.

    Near the end of the last century, the U.S. Army switched from a large caliber to a smaller one (.45 to .3 . It didn't do the job.

    At about the same time, Col. Julian Hatcher, U.S. Army, did a series of tests to determine which calibers had the best stopping power. These tests showed that, all other factors being equal, the larger the bullet, and the larger the cross sectional area, the greater the stopping power.

    Since, for defensive purposes, it's best to take an opponent out with as few shots as possible (preferably one shot).....we Americans tend to prefer larger calibers.

    polishshooter
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3071
    (3/16/02 10:43:31 am)
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    The 9x19 is really the best of the "minor calibers," if only BECAUSE so many handguns are chambered for it, and it was the Father of the "high capacity magazine" craze. REALLY, the "Browning High Power" was the 9 that even put the round even in the running as a defensive round...but if not for the 13 round mag, it may not have been so successful...

    It's reputation as a "manstopper" however is a myth...most agencies that adopted it in the "wonder 9" years about 10 years ago have switched back to more powerful rounds, simply because it is unreliable to stop an aggressor, thus more dangerous to the user, innocent bystanders, and even, to the person SHOT.

    I take exception to the point somebody said that here we want to "kill" an attacker...that is FLAT wrong. The purpose in ANY armed encounter is to STOP the attacker, and thus end the attack, NOW, with as few rounds fired as possible...death of the attacker is NOT the goal, EVER, simply removing the threat he/she posed to ourselves, or innocent bystanders, as well as the threat posed by the "good" shooter, however justified, firing back, either through our misses or over-penetrations, hurting those we wish to save.

    And by your own admission, "if necessary, you can take a deadly shot..." shows REALLY you don't think a 9mm will take somebody out WITHOUT one...so you HAVE to shoot for the head or heart to be sure...With a 9mm you are MORE likely to kill than a .45, simply because of the more hits needed to stop.

    The secret is "transfer of energy." A BIG SLOW round is better than a small fast, OR small/slow round, or even Big/fast in that department, and reduces the chance of "overpenetration," which by definition, means LESS energy transfer.

    The myth? "More people have been killed by the 9mm than any other pistol round..." THAT is TRUE.....


    Only because MOST SMGs are chambered for it, worldwide...it IS a superior Subgun cartridge, both for mag capacity reasons, and controllability...and it's lack of power is negated by the fact the target is routinely hit my multiple, almost simultaneous hits, overloading the nervous system...

    But still, TWO almost simultaneous hits from a .45 (double taps?) will overload the same way and stop the attack, as sure as 5 or more 9mm hits....

    Your point about any handgun is a deterrent, or however you said it is certainly true. ANY handgun in ANY caliber can do the job, and is certainly better than your fists when you desoerately need a handgun...

    THAT explains the proliferation and success of the various "defensive" handguns in .32, .380, heck even .25, and .22lr! Many times aggression can be stopped by merely POINTING a gun, at such times caliber is irrelevant.

    BUT, even though we can claim the .22 MAY be the most "LETHAL" cartridge, capable of penetration vests, and it is the "silenced" round of choice, and the weapon most likely used by the Mafia for executions, NO ONE would choose it for a primary "defensive" weapon.

    Another factor in various European and Asian societies is the disarmament of the population, making armed confrontations "on paper" less likely. This explains why Sig makes a .32 acp "modern" "Police" weapon, which is still police issue in Japan, for example...but in Japan, the Police are more likely to face edged weapons, and a .32 is definitely better than a blade...but not by much... And in Eastern European ex-communist or Czarist countries, the tradition is (hopefully , WAS?)that pistols were used mainly for "executions..." whether they want to admit it or not...and small calibers are more "economical" and less messy than large for the traditional "one shot to the back of the head..."

    But if you see the countries that use "small caliber" rounds for the Police, they are much more likely to have an SMG as a backup, even slung on shoulders in public...

    Here in America, believe it or not, we do NOT like lead flying around haphazardly, injuring INNOCENTS.

    Which is why we choose LARGE pistol rounds to stop problems with minimum hits, and the 12 guage Shotgun as the "support" weapon, or the primary weapon where an attack is expected...NOT an SMG....

    For a backup or concealable (under summer clothes) gun? SIZE is a factor, so if you go to a "minor caliber," the 9x19 or larger REALLY is too large....for a "blowback" operated gun, which is by far more reliable than any locked breech gun, especially in small sizes...the spring needed to counterract recoil makes it too hard to pull back the slide...

    Therefore, KNOWING the caliber is too small, KNOWING the handgun is going to be hard to shoot accurately at any range, you must PRACTICE more to be sure all rounds will hit where you are aiming at 10 yds or less...

    That is why the .32, .380, or my choice, the 9x18 Makarov...or the .38spl in a 2" revolver, makes a better choice than the 9x19 in even a "back-up" role...if you are going to "cut down" a 9 to make it concealable, why not cut down a .45 instead???? It will STILL be better than the 9, and as controllable.

    The 10mm? IT'S claim to fame is that it is about the BIGGEST round that can be double stacked in a mag to have a "Hicap" mag, and not need monster hands to hold the gun...while still doing better at the terminal end than a pipsqueak "9."

    But that really is a myth also...good technique and spare mags can trump the hicap myth any day...it's ONLY value is convincing the owner/user he doesn't have to carry as many or ANY spare mags...which could ALSO get him/her killed...




    Hi. My name is Mike. And I am a Nagantaholic. "Don't hear him call you an @sshole, hear WHY he's calling you an @sshole." -------- From "A Season on the Brink"

    TallTLynn
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3444
    (3/16/02 11:05:35 am)
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    ezSupporter
    Re: First of all, thanks for all answers.
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    Don't get me wrong I own a 9mm the high mag Beretta 92F. It's accurate and at 25 to 50 yards I can place the shot pretty much where I want it.

    Would I want that to be my choice in a threatening situation - hell no! Yes It would do the job if and that's one huge if I'm lucky enough to be able to do a head or heart shot. I mean how many bad guys are going to stand there and let you take pots shots at them without moving?

    If I had the option (and believe me I'll get me one yet) I'd use a 45 acp. on a 1911 frame. Those guns have the power behind the punch to do it in pretty much one shot (if we're talking placement here).

    In your country maybe one doesn't have the option of removing by deadly force but in a lot of places here we do. Fact is if push comes to shove I'd prefer the perp to be dead - less chance of being sued for my shooting him/her while defending myself.

    gun runner john
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 496
    (3/16/02 11:43:53 am)
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    Quote:
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    How about what the experts think? from an older S&W catalog, when 9mm's were the thing, their expert had an article about calibers for self defense and he said that anything smaller than a 38 special was too small for self defense, including the 9mm.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Experts? The standard pressure 9mm better than a standard pressure .38Sp in any parameter you referece, I'm confused about where the "experts" get their data! The .38Sp fires the same size bullet at the 9mm, just with less energy. Where is the benefit?


    Donny Henry
    Member
    Posts: 19
    (3/16/02 2:32:32 pm)
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    Caliber: I am not a cop, but I pick up all of their spent cases off of the ground at their private range here in my town, and I am here to tell you, the popular bullet is the .9mm I have picked up thousands of 9mm cases and I have a total of five 10mm cases on my reloading bench...This tells me that the 10mm is not used much around here at all.

    I agree with just about all Polish said with the exception of not wanting to kill the "bad guy" If I am in my home, and my wife and I are "broke in on" if at all possible I am going to stick two .45 rounds in the guys chest and one in his head...He put himself in the situation, and I'm taking him out of it... I find it ironic how that it is common knowledge that any crack head will kill you for your dough, but its almost forbidden or evil to speak of killing to protect it.

    My .002
    ~-~Courage is not the lack of fear...
    but the presence of faith.~-~


    Edited by: Donny Henry at: 3/16/02 4:58:56 pm

    Different name
    V.I.P. Forum Host
    Posts: 1488
    (3/16/02 5:14:35 pm)
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    Golly ---- Why not jus thwap em on tha wrist a cwupple of
    thimes?
    Pepper Spray? OR
    "Feet get me wher I ain't!"
    410 with #4's?
    Sawed 12 Ga. OO Bucks?
    20 Ga. # 6s full choke?

    357 Mag?

    Charlie D
    Usually, I not tense,
    just terribly, terribly alert!

    nighthawksh
    Member
    Posts: 2
    (3/16/02 6:22:25 pm)
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    my 2 cents worth = carry and use the "largest caliber which the person can accurately fire and control"

    bondai
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 1426
    (3/16/02 9:32:50 pm)
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    Anymore questions ???



























    In the end, when you face the sort of crisis that requires a defensive firearm, the question isn’t so much, “Did you have the ideal gun?” The question is more, “Did you have a gun at all?”

    Edited by: bondai at: 3/16/02 11:18:24 pm

    Dave3
    Member
    Posts: 41
    (3/16/02 10:54:58 pm)
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    Well I guess I better get that 9mm out of my nightstand and put the 480 back in there. I can always just hit them with it if there still moving. I'm looking for a good 45.

    SW Man
    Member
    Posts: 38
    (3/16/02 11:41:09 pm)
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    Gunrunnerjohn -
    Take a good look at the standard ballastics for STANDARD loads for the 9mm and the 38 spl. The 9mm is a smaller bullet by about .003" diameter and on the average 33-40 grains lighter. The muzzle velocity of most 9mm's is slightly higher, but the ftlbs of force is less. The bullet is going faster with less impact power. That is why the 38spl rates better. When you compare loads, such as the hydra shoks again the velocity is greater, but there is even more disparity in impact force.
    That is why the 45 ACP is such a great manstopper. Slow velocity and tremendous impact force. That is the disadvantage of the 9mm faster velocity and less impact force.
    Personally, I believe the standard 38 spl is too light for self defense. I would not carry anything less than a hydra shok (a +P load) I would rather, and normally do, carry a 357 magnum. One of the best all around calibers that exists. When I want a compact gun(a 2") I go to a 38 S&W with a 200 gn bullet. Low velocity but one heavy impact force. (That is the caliber the Brits used to replace the 455 and believed it to have the stopping power of the 45ACP).
    The second admendment GUARANTEES the Constitution and the other nine.

    Edited by: SW Man at: 3/16/02 11:43:50 pm

    ysacres
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 178
    (3/16/02 11:46:21 pm)
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    I'm with Bondai
    Hold a nine in your left hand, and a fourty five in your right hand, now look at the nine with your left eye, and the fourty five with your right eye.

    Point; even if your lefthanded and cross eyed you would see that 9 X 5 = 45


    NU"F BOU"T NUTH'N

    Only a small percentage of criminals are sent to prison. A bigger percentage are re-elected

    kdub01
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 377
    (3/17/02 12:18:02 am)
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    Although I carry a holstered .380 Makarov (light, handy, doesn't pull the pants down as bad, mostly for show anyway), I'd have to say the ol' reliable .45 ACP will get the job done hands down over the smaller calibers.

    It's like a 9mm being a broom handle and the .45 being a softball bat. Getting hit by either is going to hurt, but the ball bat is definately gonna ruin your day!!

    Flhunter
    V.I.P. Forum Host
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    (3/17/02 12:46:31 am)
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    ezSupporter
    Re: Calibers
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    It all boils down to compromise and to a persons ability.

    The .45 is great and probably the best man stopper(within reason) there is. But we have all seen the videos where as the officer/store owner and the bad guy get into a shoot out and bullets are flying every where. It doesn't take long to use up 7 shots. Plus what happens if there is more than one thug?

    The 10mm is good also. More stopping power than a 9mm plus the higher(10 rounds) magazine. Down fall here is the grip is too big for most(me included) people to shoot one handed comfortably and safely.

    The 9mm on the other hand. Has semi-good stopping power plus a 10 round+ magazine. Yes, the grip is still larger than your 7 shot .45, but not too large for most people to still be able to shoot one handed. Also there is less recoil for faster follow up shots not to mention that when fully loaded it is probably lighter than the other two.

    No matter what you choose there will be a compromise.



    The Curio and Relic Firearms Forum

    polishshooter
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3088
    (3/18/02 10:29:40 am)
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    I'm with you Kdub, I carry either my 5" .45 or my Makarov depending on where I'm going, the weather, and what I'm wearing...

    I feel MUCH better with the slabside on my waist, even IWB, not only for the power, but it's the one handgun with which I have put most rounds downrange, and practiced reloads.

    But the Makarov seems to go with me more places...

    And I don't feel THAT undergunned with it, especially since I feel it is probably the MOST reliable and accurate handgun I've EVER fired...including the 1911A1...

    I guess if I was really expecting to "step in it," I'd carry BOTH...

    (And probably get shot while trying to decide which one to pull FIRST... )


    Hi. My name is Mike. And I am a Nagantaholic. "Don't hear him call you an @sshole, hear WHY he's calling you an @sshole." -------- From "A Season on the Brink"

    MO JENKINS
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 160
    (3/21/02 9:20:53 am)
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    I guess you don't know what you REALLY need until you're in that specific situation. I personally like the 9mm, because I will accept it's SHORTCOMINGS(overpenetration and lack of "impact force") and take the decided ADVANTAGE that if some penetration is NEEDED to get to a target(B.G.) then the 9mm will give me that. Unlike many people, I consider a hangun(almost any handgun, really) to be a maginal choice in a combat weapon). Very effective, but I STILL expect to have to use everything at my disposal to come out alive! Handgun or not, it's still a BLOODY BRAWL as I see it. Being able to use EVERYTHING in that enviroment to my advantage is probably the ONLY thing that's gonna get me out of it alive...
    Aw Heck, who knows, I'm always full of SH!T anyways!
    Your Buddy,
    MO JENKINS

    gun runner john
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 508
    (3/21/02 2:13:39 pm)
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    Quote:
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    Take a good look at the standard ballastics for STANDARD loads for the 9mm and the 38 spl. The 9mm is a smaller bullet by about .003" diameter and on the average 33-40 grains lighter. The muzzle velocity of most 9mm's is slightly higher, but the ftlbs of force is less. The bullet is going faster with less impact power. That is why the 38spl rates better. When you compare loads, such as the hydra shoks again the velocity is greater, but there is even more disparity in impact force.
    That is why the 45 ACP is such a great manstopper. Slow velocity and tremendous impact force. That is the disadvantage of the 9mm faster velocity and less impact force.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Let's start with the fast/light argument. Why is it that the best street record was compiled by the .357 with 125gr bullets? Why not the heavier ones if they're better?

    Now, let's move on to the muzzle energy argument. Where do you get your data on .38Sp and 9mm? I am looking in Cartridges of the World, 7th Ed. and I don't get the same numbers. In point of fact, the 9mm has SIGNIFICANTLY more ME than .38Sp. No loading of .38Sp has a ME of over 300 FP, and only one loading of the 9mm has less than 300 FP, and the Nato round that the US military uses has 465 FP. That's my "good look" at standard ballistics for the 9mm and .38Sp. I hope you're not going to try to tell me that the .003 diameter difference is all that signficant!

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