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COLT MINATURE 1911 QUESTION

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4K views 24 replies 13 participants last post by  patrol 
#1 · (Edited)
Did Colt ever make an (exact copy) minature 1911 in .380 ?

If so what was the name, it's not a Pony...

Pony is DA hammerless

I think Llama did.

What is the name of it.
 
#3 · (Edited)
colt almost made one based a the star "starfire" design. the project was cancelled at the last minute but not before it was included in the colt 1971 catalog. there were even a few complete with colt marking (probably less than 50) that were actually sold, not by colt but by firearms international corp. of washington dc. FI was involved with the project as the go between for colt and star. F.I. eventually produced the pistol as the F.I. Model D and all of F.I. models i have encountered have a serial number prefix of c.a.p. the serial number with this prefix go up as high as 40,000, but i don't think that many were actually sold. in 1978 Iver Johnson purchased the rights to this pistol. iver johnson sold the pistol as the Model X300 pony between 1978 and the 1990s. the boxes F.I. used were the same one made up for colt very similar (but smaller) to the boxes colt used for their full size government model. these boxes are brown in color with a yellow F.I. label pasted on them. there must have been a lot of these boxes because Iver Johnson also used them for thier original production in the late 1978/79. the iver johnson brown boxes will have a white label pasted on them. this is an interesting pistol and there is information on it in my new iver johnson book but i do not believe the full story is fully known even at this late date.
bill
 
#5 ·
I would love to have a Colt Mustang in good condition.

SoMo and I saw one a couple years ago that was close to NIB, but we passed it up. Wish we'd grabbed it then as we probably won't see another as good and at a reasonable price again.
 
#8 ·
Thanks a lot guys.....:D

Are the ones you mention, Mustang, I & J "pony" exact minature copies of the 1911 ?????
 
#9 ·
Al
I'll bet you are gagging, having found out Colt was using a "junk" Star design!:rolleyes:
The star Starfire DKL .380 was the basis for the original Pony.
None of the Colt, Star, I.J., or F.I. guns was an exact copy of the 1911. The Llama was about as close as you can get.
Bill
 
#10 ·
Thanks Bill,

The Llama thing is pretty much what I'm finding out.

Maybe I've got my old wires crossed on the Star,.....:D

I could have sworn that brand was bad mouthed big time on some other forum.

I could have the Star brand corn-fused with another,
 
#13 ·
Are the ones you mention, Mustang, I & J "pony" exact minature copies of the 1911 ?????
No they aren't.

For all intents and purposes, the Llama IIIa is an exact copy of the M1911A1 (about 2/3 scale). The only difference is the Colt has an internal extractor and the Llama has an external one. Otherwise, the Llama is a part for part copy.....just smaller.

.....and being a copy of the M1911A1, it's one of only a very few .380's that fire from a locked breech.

As for the IIIa only being able to feed and handle round-nosed bullets.....well, the knock on Llamas has always been their quality control, and certainly the machine work on the IIIa is not up to Colt standards, but it should respond to tuning the way a 1911 does. I suspect that if you carefully radius and polish the feed ramp, it should be able to feed most, if not all, .380 cartridges on the market.
 
G
#14 ·
As for the IIIa only being able to feed and handle round-nosed bullets.....well, the knock on Llamas has always been their quality control, and certainly the machine work on the IIIa is not up to Colt standards, but it should respond to tuning the way a 1911 does. I suspect that if you carefully radius and polish the feed ramp, it should be able to feed most, if not all, .380 cartridges on the market.
Interesting, X. I would love to get my III-A to be a bit more functional. Are any special tools needed to do the ramp polishing job, or is that something an amateur might do successfully? If so, how might I go about it? The III-A I have will sometimes FTE even with ball ammo. Yet, I must admit, I like the feel of the little gun and would shoot it more if it worked properly.
 
#15 ·
OK, PS......here you go. It's not hard, just time consuming.

First and foremost.....DO NOT USE A DREML TOOL!

The feed problems with 1911-type firearms can be the magazine, but with older GI 1911's and Llamas, it's usually the step up from the magazine feedwell into the chamber at the rear of the barrel. Roundnose usually feed fine, and anything with a flat on it often hangs up.

Tools needed.....4 to 6 inch 5/16 to 3/8 inch dowel. 200, 400, & 600 grit sandpaper or crocus cloth and a can of compressed air.

First, remove magazine, and lock the slide all the way back. With a small flashlight, look in thru the ejection port and note the relationship between the magazine feedwell and the rear of the chamber. There'll probably be quite a step there.

Field strip the gun, and pin the barrel/chamber back onto the frame. Push the barrel/chamber all the way back and down so it's in the "feed" position. Run the ball of your little finger over the magazine well to chamber interface. You should be able to feel any rough spots, "steps", or sharp or square edges. Note where these are. You want to "radius" these (remove the rough or sharp edges).

Remove the barrel/chamber from the gun. Wrap the 200 grit crocus cloth around the dowel, and very slowly and carefully start to smooth the sharp edges. Do this very slowly......remember, you can always take more metal off, but you can't add it back on!

After you've slightly rounded the worst of the steps or sharp edges, test fit the barrel to the frame and feel it with ball of your little finger. (You may also have to remove a bit of metal from the magazine feedwell.) Then go to the 400 grit and do the same......then the 600 grit.

The idea is to form a very smooth transition from the magazine feedwell into the bottom of the chamber.

It's also not a bad idea to buy a box of the ammo you want to use, and "test fit" it. Load the mag and insert it into the frame. Push the barrel/chamber all the way down & back, and try to feed a cartridge into the chamber with your thumb.

When you get it so rounds chamber well, completely disassemble the pistol, clean & lube it.

Any questions?
 
#16 ·
Just side notes...tell me if I'm wrong...

Do not change the angle of the feedramp/feedwell.

Do not eliminate the flat gap between the uppermost feedramp edge and the bottom of the chamber.
 
#18 · (Edited)
Thanks a lot guys......

I've decided to get a PTP from the Sheriff tomorrow and start to look for a Llama IIIa.

Now I know to look for an older model.

And how to polish it up.

What would be a fair/normal price if I find one?

If anyone out there in cyber space wants to unload (as in sell) ..:D... theirs,

Let me know.



My plan is to put a IIIa with a 1911 in my dark gunsafe and start a breeding program....:eek:

Like the wife does with our Papillons......:eek: .........just kidden.....:D
 
#20 ·
Here in brasil we have it. It is pruduced by Imbel, but it has teh very same size of a commander colt. It does not have the locked breech system, it works on a direct blowback arrangment, like the colt ace conversion kits to be used on 1911 in .45 ACP. A decent gun, that does not like anything but round nosed ammo. Have one as my CCW, since it is the largest pistol caliber allowed for a civilian to carry. This gun is just like any colt commander sizewise.
 
#21 ·
I believe the 380 Govt model is a closer copy of its big brother the Govt model..Not too sure as I was never able to find a 380 Govt model that I could afford.,,Do have a Mustang and a Pony and like them very much..They are very comfortable shooting because of the locked breech system..
 
#22 ·
Here in brasil we have it. It is pruduced by Imbel, but it has the very same size of a commander colt..
I was looking for an exact copy of the 1911

Appears that only a Tarus IIIA, is what I wanted and was looking for......:(

I have given up and am now looking for a .....

Kel-Tec PLR (pistol long range) in .223

This little guy would give the libs nightmares.......:D

I'm not a big fan of the "Varmit Calibers"......:p

I know a lot of people on this forum hunt deer with them....:(

I was forced to use the caliber to hunt people in Vietnam....but that is another story....:rolleyes:
 
#23 ·
The "Exact" copy of your sought after 1911 made by "Colt" even) in the 380acp caliber are two mdls: The Colt "Mustang" Pocketlite and the Colt "Government" model pocket lite this one is an older "Mustang" and you can find them both on Auction Arms and yes they are overpriced for what they are but that's how colt's roll. Llama's in my opinion are "POS'. and have absolutely no collector value. If you want a good 380 that is reliable, cheap and the smallest they make get you a Keltec.
 
#24 ·
It isn't a Colt but the newest thing I have seen is by Springfield Armoryit is called the EMP it is in 9mm. It is supposedly the worlds smallest 1911
http://www.springfield-armory.com/armory.php?model=24
Ive read your post and respect your knowledge. Having said that just to let you know I love Springfield but they are liars about the EMP. Check out the Specs on the Para "Carry 9 and even the "Slimline Hawg" in 45ACP are both 24oz and as small. I dont know why they sell it at $1000 or more either and even GA called it the Gun of the year already even before it was released to the general public? Sounds silly to me.
 
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