Combat Shotguns Anybody ????

Discussion in 'Large-Bore/Small-Bore Rifle/Shotgun' started by warpig, Feb 24, 2003.

  1. warpig

    warpig Guest

    MO JENKINS
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    (7/10/01 10:46:43 pm)
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    I would like to start an area in this forum where we can get a regular discussion going on serious scatterguns! I'm kind of partial to them because I live in Connecticut and can pretty much lay down effective covering fire on the entire state with one good pumpgun!!! Anyway, just throwing this out there to see if some of these guys that spend time debating the HUGE(YEAH RIGHT!) difference between already battle proven handguns could spend some time talking about some much more serious weapons!
    That's right,I double dog dare YA' !!
    MO


    TallTLynn
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
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    (7/10/01 10:55:12 pm)
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    Well could you explain what a combat shotgun is exactly? I own a Remington 870 pump and before that a Remington 1100 semi. But both were for shooting birds - so what I wondered is exactly what is the difference.

    kdubaz
    Moderator
    Posts: 217
    (7/11/01 1:52:58 pm)
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    Only time I humped one of them was in the brown boot Army when assigned as tail-gunner on prisoner detail for grounds policing.

    When LEO, carried personal Rem 870 cut down to 18". Sold to another dept'l member upon leaving.
    Keep below the ridgeline!

    MO JENKINS
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 40
    (7/12/01 11:08:48 am)
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    Well Lynn,
    Just off the top I guess these days a "combat shotgun" refers to a repeater(pump or auto) in 12 or 20 with a relatively handy O.A.L.(22" barrel, absolute max). Mine are usually 6+1 capacity and an 18" barrel with some sort of upgraded sights.
    I guess there's alot open to debate and probably as many opinions out there as there are wingnuts like me!!! Although most of the opinions are probably not coming from nutjobs like myself, hence my desire to get a serious discussion going where we can all learn from each other and have some fun!
    Talk to you soon,
    MO JENKINS

    TallTLynn
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1274
    (7/12/01 7:30:17 pm)
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    So basically either of the shotguns I had or have now would fit the description if I cut the barrel down to a little over 18"...interesting idea I can see. Not that I would do it to the shotguns I have now but I can see me looking for one I could shorten (within legal limits mind you).

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1229
    (7/13/01 6:10:48 pm)
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    T, you can get a "slug" barrel for it and turn it into a reasonable facsimile pretty quick. You just have to remove the big nut at the end of the mag tube to switch them, takes a just a couple of seconds to switch or switch back.

    They make them in 18" and 20" I think, maybe 22" for the 870.

    When I built mine, I bought first a used 870 18" with a pistol grip, got it cheap, and they are ALWAYS in good shape because they are a bear to shoot, and good only for "home defense" actually.

    Then I bought a used 870 beater, with a 28" modified vent rib barrel.

    Put the 18" on the "beater" and sold it for $150, it was a basic police riot gun at that point, but not what I wanted.

    Used the money to by a Choate pistol grip stock, took the barrel to a shotgun 'smith, had him cut to 20", and install the TrueChoke screw in choke system, and mount an Ithaca flourescent front sight. He also cleaned up the trigger, it was nice when done. (The same guy cut my '97 back the same time, but that's another story...)

    I got tubes in Cyl. (a waste) just to protect the threads, could have done without it I later found out, a "Skeet II" choke, which is halfway between IC and Modified, and an "Improved Modified," which is halfway between mod and full.

    Put a Lyman flip up aperture on the reciever, so when folded, I saw nothing but rib for Buck and Bird, but when up, was like a "ghost ring" rear for slugs. This was about 15 years ago before Ghost rings were in vogue.

    Last thing I added was a Remington 2 shot mag extension, and a black nylon sling.

    I used this gun for everything I hunted, and for combat shotgun matches. That's back when I first began experimenting with duplex loads and the like.

    Don't have it anymore, now my '97 is my best and favorite riot gun. Just a standard 26" cylinder bore that I cut to 18 1/2" when I got rid of Gramps polychoke. In the picture, you see what was in effect the worlds first repeater "Combat Shotgun." Winchester made them in 18 and 20" barrels, takedown and solid, ever since they started making them, but lots more around WWII and the Depression, for the military and the cops. The '97 "Trench Gun" you've heard us talk about was a '97 riot with a perforated steel hadguard that took a bayonet also.

    I competed in a few plate table and pin matches, usually got beat by the 1100s except when they malfunctioned, which happened enough, but they didn't beat me by enough to convince me an auto is necessarily better. The pump is more reliable in a shotgun, but the trade-off is you only get one shot if one hand is tied up with something else.

    Slugs and Buckshot usually shoot best through a cylinder or IC choke. Buck CAN be fired through any choke, but they don't act the same as birdshot in the choke, and the choke can deform the shot, and/or cause flyers and holes in the pattern.

    BTW, T, 18" is the shortest you can go and be legal. Any shorter and it has to be registered like a machine gun.

    You measure it by sticking a measure down the barrel until it touches the closed bolt face, 18 is minimum. I had mine cut with the extra 1/2" just in case a cop didn't know how to measure, to be safe.


    Patina is an acquired taste.

    Edited by: polishshooter at: 7/13/01 7:13:49 pm

    TallTLynn
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1313
    (7/13/01 8:44:24 pm)
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    polishshooter - why do you think I made the remark about 18". That I know is as short as I can go. Heard enough about it during the Rand Weaver case here in Idaho.

    I think however, I would buy a shot gun specifically for doing that too - bought this shotgun for something different.

    Hmmmm, though since it is a left handed shotgun - maybe you do have the correct idea and I should fix this one for combat and buy another for trap and skeet shooting.

    Thanks for the info polish - I can see I now have something new to ponder!

    AntiqueDr
    Moderator
    Posts: 482
    (7/13/01 8:46:39 pm)
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    T,

    Please dont saw up your left-handed Remington... they are hard enough to find!

    If you want a good left-handed combat shotgun, find yourself an Ithaca 37. It ejects out the bottom, so it is truly ambidextrous.


    We Buy Guns! 1 - 100, Antique or Modern!
    www.apaxenterprises.com

    the real fredneck
    V.I.P. Member
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    (7/13/01 8:53:44 pm)
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    TLynn
    another possibility would be a ChiCom (Norinco) imitation Model 97, wanna bet polishshooter could put the lovely brown patina on it?

    TallTLynn
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1314
    (7/13/01 8:54:01 pm)
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    Okay AntiqueDr - I kinda wondered if they were hard to find - funny thing is a right hander sold it to me - he'd been using it for years.

    I won't cut it up - will do the other route.

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1236
    (7/13/01 11:20:29 pm)
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    Cheapest and easiest, T, find a used slug barrel for yours, you STILL can use it with either barrel whenever you want.

    Any gunshop worth it's salt has a place in the back with spare used barrels for sale, most are for 870s or Mossbergs it seems.

    Use that action, with two barrels. You'd be used to using one gun no matter what, for what you'd use the short one for, you'd want one you are used to in a pinch, the one you use all the time and know like the back of your hand is a good choice.

    Now an Ithaca 37 is a good idea if you can find one, people don't like to part with them if they have one, but it would be easier than finding another left handed 870, especially one with a slug barrel.

    The Norinco 97 still ejects right in the face of a lefty, not a good choice. Plus, with used 97s still available in decent shape (minimal patina!)for $300-400, especially the short ones, I still don't understand the reason for a $350 Chinese copy, even if it is "new."

    I haven't shot one yet to compare, plus they don't have a takedown yet...


    Patina is an acquired taste.

    TallTLynn
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1318
    (7/13/01 11:24:15 pm)
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    $350??? Dang and I thought I paid a lot when I gave $200 for this shotgun for crying out loud.

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1237
    (7/13/01 11:29:14 pm)
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    And T? I figured YOU might know the 18" deal, but since this is kinda like the inaugural post on "combat shotguns," newbies may not, or at least didn't know how they were measured, heck, lots of COPS don't know how to measure it.

    They get REAL excited over doubles or single shots cut to 18", because they look so short because there isn't any action, really, making them look so much shorter than an 18 with the extra 6-8" of the action added on.

    As much as you wouldn't use one as a REAL combat shotgun, an old single cut to 18", leaning behind the bedroom door would make a dandy, handy, cheap, and almost foolproof "Home Defense Gun."

    My single 12 Savage 220, even though still 28", is the one I have my wife trained to grab when I'm not home, if needed. I used to have one cut to 20" that was pretty handy, too, and printed slugs GREAT, I wish I still had it.
    Patina is an acquired taste.

    TallTLynn
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1319
    (7/13/01 11:38:50 pm)
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    polish - after I replied in regards to the 18" I thought about it and we do have a lot of newbies - good thing you made your comment.

    AntiqueDr
    Moderator
    Posts: 485
    (7/14/01 6:04:39 am)
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    Bear in mind that although the legal length for the barrel is 18", the OVERALL length must be 26" minimum.


    We Buy Guns! 1 - 100, Antique or Modern!
    www.apaxenterprises.com

    Different name
    V.I.P. Member
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    (7/14/01 1:45:41 pm)
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    ezSupporter
    Re: Combat Shotguns Anybody ????
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    Hey MO: Please give me the benefit of your wisdom concerning the "Siaga" 2 clip/5round mags 20" brl.
    Kalaznokov AK/Style 3" shells flash hider and two chokes w/cleaning kit.
    How do you read this baby?
    Charlie D
    --------------------
    Haven't shot it yet getting ready to tho.

    MO JENKINS
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 44
    (7/15/01 3:23:44 pm)
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    Hey Diff,
    Don't know much about the saiga shotguns, never even handled one. Goes without saying the Kalashnikov design is tops! I'm starting to look into a 10 rd. drum mag conversion(quick-detachable) for pumps, it's put out by Knox Ind. out of Paso Robles, CA. I probably won't be able to afford one for a while because I'm movin' to New Hampshire next week!!!(I live in the P.R.C., People's Republic of Connecticut, now) I hope I can get my hands on one before the SAFETY-NAZIS ban 'em. I'm not very quick to change when it comes to my tastes in firearms. I'm still kinda stuck on the ol' pump-guns. I'm picking up another 870 at the end of this week. I can't wait to hack the barrel down to 18 1/2" and put on a mag extension. I have an extra '03-A3 rear sight that looks like it'll make an excellent receiver sight with a little modification.I just don't think most people understand what a DEVASTATING weapon a good combat shotgun is. With receiver sights(and slugs) you OWN anything under 100 yards! Well buddy, I gotta sign out now, talk to you soon.
    "Freedom will never belong to those who will not die for it"
    Czech President Eduard Benes Sept. 30, 1938
    "I believe it is peace in our time"
    British Prime Minister (and Euro-Socialist lackey) Neville Chamberlain Sept. 30, 1938
  2. stash247

    stash247 New Member

    Joined:
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    Combat Shotgun

    Youse guys glossed right over the best parts; Hope you do better, at home, or you're REALLY in trouble with MAMA!!!
    The Ithaca 37, or M-10, in uniform, as I recall, is the top of the heap. Ambidexterous, as it spits the empties out the bottom, relatively immune to dirt, as the only opening in the receiver is also on the bottom (sorta like a Sergeant Major, or a Chief Master Sergeant, ie, the mouth and anus are interchangeable),but, in spite of the hype about dual operating links, TOTALLY RELIABLE.
    Slug barrels; see Deerslayer. Plain Barrels, see Hacksaw. Qualified threads, which means all the barrels fit all the guns.
    Proven in battle, since WWII. In the tropics, read that, Viet Nam. In the Arctic, well, don't read that; it's true, but classified, still.
    Best advice I can offer is, SHOW ME A BETTER ANSWER!
    I own several, all cut to 18+ inches(Small, but legal, +), and would/have trusted my life to them, any one.
    Having been to the big city, and seen the bright lights, I know how a man dies by a knife, a pistol, rifle, and shotgun. Even, a crossbow, and an axe.
    The guy with the shotgun, in my opinion, holds all the trump.
    At least, when it gets up close and personal...
    Buy what you like, and use what you will, but, when your alley gets full, think ITHACA>
  3. Mateomasfeo

    Mateomasfeo New Member

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    Texas
    I've got your combat shotgun. Literally.

    Benelli M1014. Accept no substitute.

    [​IMG]
  4. 45Smashemflat

    45Smashemflat New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2003
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    1,494
    Way sporty!!! Is that one "really real" or is the stock fixed length?

    I'll stick with the Benelli M1 since I've already got it. Its in basic black too, so it looks the part.
  5. 45Smashemflat

    45Smashemflat New Member

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    Hey Stash - what are your thoughts on the Ithaca Featherweights? Pawn shop here has 3 37's on the rack right now. All 12's. One is a featherweight, kinda bluey lookin' on the receiver. Seems that are all stickered ~$350.
  6. Mateomasfeo

    Mateomasfeo New Member

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    Because it is post ban it is not collapsable with mag tube limited.
    Come september it will be collapsable and mag extended.

    Hope!
  7. stash247

    stash247 New Member

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    Them Ithacas

    Offer him a lot less, would be my thought. Don't call him a crook; at those prices, his mama already does, and he probably is tired of hearing it!
    But, was it me, I'd buy all for $550, or less. I can pick 'em up here and there for 140-175, well used, (who cares!), but totally solid guns. The NICE ones bring 225-250.
    For the purpose intended, nice don't matter, function does, so pay for only what you need; a fully functional shotgun. Don't refuse the purty ones, but, don't pay extra, either. That's ammo money!
    Just my .02- hope it helps.

    P.S. Don't worry if the disconnector does not work on an Ithaca 37, 'cause it never had one!
    Last edited: May 27, 2004
  8. luvmy12gauge

    luvmy12gauge New Member

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    Mateomasfeo...that Bennelli is pure beauty at its finest.

    I used to have a Mossberg 590 Tactical. Relatively inexpensive for the quality in return. I loved that thing!!! Shot consistently, never malfunctioned, held tight groups.

    20" barrell
    Extended mag
    ghost ring sights
    speed feed stock
    parkerized finish

    I presently have a Winchester 1300 Defender. I like it, shoots great. Still wish I had never sold the Mossberg though. Can buy one for a little over $400 new. Can buy a Remington 870 defense model for less than $300 new in the box though.
  9. offeror

    offeror New Member

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    Just curious what you think of the Brolin Arms copy of the Ithaca 37, if you have any experience.
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