Compliments of Jody Hudson

Discussion in 'Large-Bore/Small-Bore Rifle/Shotgun' started by warpig, Feb 24, 2003.

  1. warpig

    warpig Guest

    TallTLynn
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    (7/15/01 7:51:45 pm)
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    from another board - discussing shotguns and walls!

    .A friend of mine, he is a carpenter, and I did a LOT of experimenting last year with several different "example walls" that he and I made to duplicate the walls on the inside of his home. We then tried several different 12 ga. loads at all the distances we expected as possibilities for self-defense need.

    The heaviest wall was 3/4" sheetrock on both sides of the two by fours with fiberglass insulation in between and TWO layers of panelling over the sheetrock on one side with one layer over the sheetrock on the other side. The lightest walls were the outside walls of the home which were vinyl siding over R-max then fiberglass insulation, sheetrock and in some cases paneling over the sheetrock. All the panelling was 1/4 inch thick.

    The "walls" we built were two feet by eight feet high to give us lots of test material.

    After a lot of testing with everything under the sun for 12 gauge; we decided on the VERY fastest trap and skeet loads in 7 1/2, 8 and 9 shot. We preferr the 9 shot but it's hard to find.

    Here's why. Out to a distance of between 16 and 22 feet with 18" (my guns), 22"-26" his son's guns and out to his OLD 30" barrell duck and goose gun... We found that all of the shot loads stayed in the plastic shot-cup and acted like a SLUG on the first side of the wall. The shot-cup was then stripped off and the pellets hit the second side of the wall. In every instance the pellets penetrated the second side of the wall. In the thickest wall, however, they had almost NO power left after passing through the second side and did not even penetrate cardboard on the other side.

    The buck shot penetrated almost identically. Everything penetrated the "outside wall of the house model wall) thin wall and still had enough ummmph to penetrate halfway through a second (as would be an inside wall of the housed).

    Since we bought our Trap and Skeet loads for $3.99 a box of 25 and all the other stuff cost a fortune. And, since the trap and skeet load acted like a slug out to about 24 feet, we use nothing else now.

    We also did a lot of pumkin testing of the loads. We found that, out to about 20-25 feet (the maximum indoors distances we have to deal with) that the Trap and Skeet was just as good as buck-shot and better than slugs at destroying pumkins. We even dressed a lot of pumkins, we are in a farming area so all the pumkins were free after the frost. We dressed the pumkins in all manner of clothing from the Salvation Army discard pile and from our own discarded clothing. Even with TWO leather jackets, over a heavy denim jacket and two heavy shirts... The Trap and Skeet loads are BEST at these inside-the-house distances. The shot-cup usually penetrated all of the clothing like a slug and then opened up inside the pumkin. In the heaviest dressed pumkins, and these pumkins were roughly a foot and a half in diameter, the shot pellets stayed mostly inside the pumkin. Seldom did any pellets stay in the first side of the pumkin in the clothing.

    For outside shooting, I'd go with one of the buck loads as well, and then out to 100-200 yards there is nothing quite as effective as a 12 gauge RIFLE and modern slugs, sabots and modern shotguns. Most modern shotguns, even with an 18 inch tube will maintain 4-8 MOA. I know.... we all speak of 1 MOA in rifles. And some of us can, on a good day, with a good rifle, a good rest, and no coffee... do some MOA work. However, in the real world, 4-8 MOA is just fine for hunting anything. And, if you must have 1 MOA accuracy; you can get it with an H&R single shot 12 gauge for about $150 and there isn't much that will stop something like a one ounce 12 gauge slug at roughly 1200 fps, or a half ounce sabot at 1400-1500 fps!

    So based on lots of real shooting through walls and killing a lot of real pumkins, I only use #9 shot at 1475 fps, which is a 2 3/4 inch shell and a light recoil.

    Let the debates continue.





    MO JENKINS
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    (7/15/01 8:25:48 pm)
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    Lynn,
    I am forever indebted to you for sharing your insights on HD loads. I never thought much about the "trap loads for home defense" theory. You are making me rethink my own position. I have 2 very young daughters in the house and I'm gonna have to really do some SERIOUS thinking here, thanks friend!
    MO

    TallTLynn
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
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    (7/15/01 8:28:14 pm)
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    It's not me my friend but Jody Hudson from another of the boards I visit - M.Opaliski's board in fact who was kind enough to put this info out for us to see. He also gave permission for kdubaz to copy it and put it here - I was asked to do it for him and I did.

    It's made me do a lot of thinking on loads for a shotgun in the house I can tell you that.

    M Opaliski
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 243
    (7/15/01 8:32:08 pm)
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    ezSupporter
    Re: Compliments of Jody Hudson
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    Jody sure is a swell guy, I am lucky to have him living close by.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Support your RKBA ... Matthew
    NRA Life Member
    Talk Radio Junkie
    opaliski@hotmail.com
    TheFirearmsEnthusiast

    Edited by: M Opaliski at: 7/15/01 9:43:18 pm

    kdubaz
    Moderator
    Posts: 270
    (7/15/01 10:35:35 pm)
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    Yeah!!

    Like "T" (thanks again, sweetie!) and Matt says, this was previously posted on Matt's "Firearms Enthuiasts" board and was approved to be cut/pasted to this forum for your consumption. Hope everyone reads and enjoys the info as much as we have over on Matts's board.

    BTW, those of you who haven't made it over there, you owe it to yourself to do so. A great board that offers a lot to the firearms internet community. The URL is listed in M. Opaliski's signature.

    Wipe your muddy feet before tramping into the clean living room, tho!!
    Keep below the ridgeline!

    Edited by: kdubaz at: 7/15/01 11:42:12 pm

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
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    (7/16/01 9:23:00 am)
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    Thanks T, save me some work!

    I've seen this done before, and I thought it would be fun to do, heck I may do it anyway.

    My only point of contention is I have done/seen similar stuff in the past, and have seen the shotcup leaving the shot at about 10 feet, in fact the general rule of thumb has always been 1" spread for every yard from the muzzle with bird/buck.

    I had a firing pin stick open on my old 220 Savage as a kid when I was loading a #6 high brass in the garage one time to "sneak" out back and get a shot at a flock of starlings we always tried to pop, and had an AD when I closed the action pretty hard. The wall was hit across the two car garage. (Luckily my brothers AMX was pretty short, and he had it pulled ALL the way up!) The ragged hole going in through the drywall was about 3" wide, but NOTHING came through the other side (Outside wall, cedar shingles as siding) The distance would have been about 12-15 feet.

    But it doesn't matter, in fact makes that "blob" even more effective against a human target. ALL the energy impacting is transferred to the target, and that's what its all about. If you were to use a slug or Buck, there would be penetration through the perp too, not only possible injuring somebody on the other side, but then that means not all the energy was transferred to the target! SO at living room range, birdshot is MORE DEADLY than a slug or any buck! Figure it out, 1 1/2 oz of lead at 1100fps STOPPING completely inside a target, versus 1 or so ounces or less passing through and leaving at 600fps...plus the fact emergency room trauma doctors say the WORST gunshot wounds to treat are short range birdshot...more internal tissue damage than any other round including .50 BMG.

    (This is something LEOs should think about, also...if I was on a "room entry" team, I would SERIOUSLY consider reloading, at least the first two or three rounds, with Field Loads....)

    I appreciate the fact he tested through clothing, too, I had somebody claim on GB bird wouldn't penetrate a leather jacket.

    Plus you don't look like a "bad guy" when the investigation after the fact happens, and some lowlife attorney sues you, "because you murdered a poor homeless guy just looking for a place to sleep." (you know the drill...)

    If you WERE to shoot a criminal in your house to save your or your family member's life, "Buckshot" makes you sound to a jury like you are a wacko survivalist, or LEO wannabe just LOOKING for a chance to blow somebody away.

    A "Rabbit/Squirrel" load makes you look like you are just a hunter that had no choice and was lucky.

    Prepare for EVERYTHING, not only the incident we all hope to never face, but the aftermath as well.
    Beware the Warped Crufflers.

    Edited by: polishshooter at: 7/16/01 10:42:14 am

    Mr Jody Hudson
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    Posts: 10
    (7/18/01 8:00:54 pm)
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    ezSupporter
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    Hi Polishshooter, and all,

    For some reason, in the distant past, I too had the shot cup leave MUCH earlier than with the recent hypervelocity bird and rabbit shot in the new plastic cups.

    I am not a reloader, however, they seem to stay in the cup much longer. Also the spread was not as rapid as it used to be in my feeble memory.

    I don't recall the spread to distance ratio at this point, but suffice it to say, that the spread was not dramatic per yard traveled and caused us to REMEMBER that we must rely on ain and not spread to hit our target, even at more maximum distances of 40-50 yards!


    Real Estate services; Lewes, Rehoboth, Dewey, Bethany, Fenwick, Oak Orchard and inland bays of Delaware. Informative essays too. Please visit our website and discussion board.


    AntiqueDr
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    Posts: 518
    (7/18/01 8:34:16 pm)
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    Well, I havent found a pumpkin but I have a nice big watermelon that is now wearing some old pantyhose and a cotton bra....



    We Buy Guns! 1 - 100, Antique or Modern!
    www.apaxenterprises.com

    kdubaz
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    Posts: 308
    (7/18/01 11:03:41 pm)
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    Uh...................Doc...........you sure you wanna share this with us????
    Keep below the ridgeline!

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1328
    (7/18/01 11:08:55 pm)
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    WELCOME Jody! Good bit of research, I was saving some scrap for JUST this reason.

    The 1"/yd is from a cylinder bore, using buck, but the bird should be similar. I THINK I got this from Shaw, but I'm not sure. But I DID see his 10 yds hostage target shot with 4 buck, the perps left side of head and ear were gone, NOTHING near the hostage. Did it from port arms, pretty darn quick, just got the front sight on target.

    Did it to prove that a shotgun with ANY load is an "area fire" weapon only at a specific range.

    Any load less than 10 yds has to be treated like a slug, and aimed.

    Good research on the clothing. I got into a debate on GB with a kid who claimed his dad was shot by his grandpa when he was crossing a fence hunting, from like 10 FEET and his father's leather jacket stopped ALL the birdshot, which was why bird was lousy for "Home Defense."

    I nicely told him if ALL he said was true, his Dad must have had a special relationship with his Lord and Savior.

    He got back later and said his Grandpa told him it happened at about 30 yards, not 10...and it was a "grazing" hit on the arm, not a full hit. The story had just gotten better with age.

    That sounded more like it...
    Beware the Warped Crufflers.

    Mr Jody Hudson
    Member
    Posts: 10
    (7/18/01 11:28:01 pm)
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    ezSupporter
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    We had some buck shot with powdered plastic among the big shot for buffer, and no shot cup, as well. It opened up faster by far. However, we liked the birdshot much better for our experiments, and feared useage.
    Real Estate services; Lewes, Rehoboth, Dewey, Bethany, Fenwick, Oak Orchard and inland bays of Delaware. Informative essays too. Please visit our website and discussion board.


    reedbuster
    V.I.P. Member
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    (7/18/01 11:57:34 pm)
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    great post, very informative. I like the testing proceedure. I always worried about shooting through the walls and into my neighbors home with my pistol, I will definately reconsider my home defense weapon.
    Thanks

    P.S. Welcome to the board Mr. Jody!!
    Ax me 'bout ebonics.

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1335
    (7/19/01 7:21:13 pm)
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    And AD, next time you have a watermelon you need to get rid of, especially a big full one you let get too ripe, try a 12 guage slug on it...

    But be sure to stand AT LEAST 20 yards or so away, or wear a poncho...

    I LOVE when that happens, I ALWAYS convince my wife to buy 2 or 3 whenever they are like 1.99 or so, "Go ahead, that's a GREAT price, Hon!"

    Usually have two to shoot about a week later...
    Eibar Pimp. "Pssst! 'Ay Meester..."

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1336
    (7/19/01 7:26:06 pm)
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    And Jody? Did you load that Buck with the "Special Mix #47" buffering from Ballistic Products?

    Those are the loads and components I use. Their "Slug and Buckshot" manual was the best $5 I ever spent.

    And anybody else that loads ANYTHING for a shotgun, get their free catalogue, it's a MUST.

    www.ballisticproducts.com
    Eibar Pimp. "Pssst! 'Ay Meester..."
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