Confederate Flag Debate

Discussion in 'General Military Arms & History Forum' started by Guest, Feb 23, 2003.

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    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 219
    (4/7/01 11:49:36 pm)
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    Real simple, wherever the flag is flown SIMPLY for historical value or for commemoration, or solemn remembrance, it should be allowed.

    Whenever it is flown to "send a message," it should be torn down.

    The recent book "Confederates in the Attic" has a wonderful chapter about it, and quotes some Confederate Sympathizers who lament that "they" let the rascist rabble take over the flag to oppose the Civil Right's marchers, and it doesn't mean what it used to anymore.

    I agree. It means to whole generations of Americans everywhere Hank Williams, Jr, or just that the "blacks don't like it!" or "I'm a redneck." They have no clue what it REALLY means and are the ones degrading it. The south gave up ALL claim to that flag during the 1960s...

    When I see a small town redneck schoolboy with a Confederate Flag sticker on the back of his Pickup with Ohio or Indiana Plates, I want to drag his scrawny A** out of his truck and drag his rascist butt to the nearest cemetery where he can explain to his great- or great-great-grandfather that died in the "Iron" or "Lightning Brigades" just what in the hell he was thinking...


    I WANT to see it proudly flying at Gettysburg or Chickamauga, or any of the battlefields big or small throughout our country, or at museums. AMERICANS fought and died either for it or against it, and colored it with their blood. We need to respect that. NOT sell it as an ornament or smallminded rascist "membership badge."


    Edited by: polishshooter at: 4/8/01 12:51:17 am

    shooter45 us
    *Senior Chief Moderator*
    Posts: 204
    (4/8/01 4:47:27 am)
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    Polishshooter, I agree. You won't find the stars and bars flying on any battlefields or cemetaries down here anymore. I remember a few kids flying the flag from their pick up's and our county only had two black famlies. Both families ancesters were slaves of a Cherokee Chief Vann. We had a wealthy Doctor with "slaves". He built them their own church and cemetary. Some were taught to read.When the issue of slavery came up during the war, they were freed. Most stayed and died here. I belive alot of people think most families in the south had slaves. Most were share croppers, not much more than slaves themselves. My family came to America in 1733 from Germany. Moved to Tennessee after the Revolution. I have never found any mention of them being slave owners. But,a few fought in Lincons War.I don't think there were any slaves in Hell's Hollow,Ga. No plantations. The tax couldn't have been an issue for them, can't raise cotton in the mountains.I have often wondered why they bothered to fight. Just liked a good scrap, I guess.

    obelix2
    Registered User
    Posts: 82
    (4/8/01 7:22:00 am)
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    Most of the Confederate rank-and-file were the "trash" whom Hattie McDaniel wouldn't have let through the front door at Tara. What were they fighting for? Maybe States Rights meant something then. It's a crying shame it had to be linked, a century apart, to two indefensible causes.

    The Stars-and-Bars battleflag (as well as the Stars-and-Stripes) is all over Gettysburg -- one of the first battles in which it was actually displayed.

    When you see it on the T-shirt of a local teenager and stop to ask questions, though, yes, it means just what you think it does.




    Xracer
    Moderator
    Posts: 119
    (4/8/01 2:15:58 pm)
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    I had many, many ancestors (from privates to a general) who fought, and a number who died, in the Civil War.....all on the Union side.

    When Lincoln, at the dedication of the cemetary at Gettysburg, said: "....the brave men, living and dead who fought here....", he made it very clear that he was making no distinction between Union and Confederate blood that had ".....hallowed this ground..."

    With that in mind, I certainly have no objection to the "Stars & Bars" flying at Civil War battlefields, cemetaries, or monuments.....many brave southerners bought that right with their lives.

    I do, however, have objections to it flying over state capitols or included in state flags where it seems to be a statement of opposition to civil rights.

    One might argue that it's a symbol of "Southern Heritage".....but any heritage that includes the buying, selling, and slavery of other human beings, hardly seems worthy of celebration or preservation.

    As to the Confederate flag on pickup trucks and tee-shirts......well, don't get me started on THAT!

    TYRVR
    Moderator
    Posts: 95
    (4/8/01 7:03:04 pm)
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    Are You the same people whose posts I just read on another topic exclaiming the importance of the First Amendment? or are they just some pretenders using Your names? or is the Freedom of expression just for those whose ideas correspond with Yours? does the term "Hypocrite" mean anything to You? I spent 38 years defending the rights of Americans, ALL Americans, not just the ones I liked or agreed with, some of You need to look A little closer at Your "Hole Card",

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 228
    (4/8/01 7:25:39 pm)
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    Tyvyr, I think you are missing the point.

    I have no problem with people saying anything they want, expressing any viewpoint they hold.

    I DO have a problem with someone taking a Historical Flag which unequivably was used for one thing and one thing only, to "Guidon" in Battle, and ascribing to it all kinds of ideology and "viewpoints" that do NOTHING but cheapen the meaning of the flag.

    If you WANT to be a rascist, fine, it's your right. If you WANT to listen to Hank Williams, jr, or Lynyrd Skynyrd(Heck, I DO!) that's your right. If you want to express any viewpoint you want, I'll defend your right to do so, as much as you. Burn the current flag if you want, even THAT just MAY be "free speech." (I'm not sure...)

    Just KEEP your hands off MY Cross of St. Andrew's "Confederate Battle Flag."

    It ain't yours to "desecrate." Any more than anyone has the right to burn the specific flag that flew over Ft McHenry, or the one Betsy Ross sewed., or any REVOLUTIONARY War Battle Flag! OR use it to sell CDs...OR promote rascism...

    Too many men died on BOTH sides around that flag to have it stand for ANYTHING else than bravery, sacrifice, and honor.

    This is the History Forum. That flag is historical. The meaning too many Americans today give to that flag is ignorant and sickening to anyone who studies History.

    It's our job to set them straight.

    obelix2
    Registered User
    Posts: 85
    (4/9/01 7:43:38 pm)
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    Are we talking about those T-shirts worn to express racist sentiments? I agree with Polish that using the battleflag for that purpose is offensive. There is, I think, a significant distinction between objecting to such use and prohibiting it. I'd like to think that freedom of expression applies as much to the critics of an obnoxious form of expression as it does to the practitioners.

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 255
    (4/9/01 8:24:57 pm)
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    It's "education, man..."

    WE have to educate people as to what the flag REALLY means and RIDICULE anyone as IGNORANT if they use it for any other purpose. As well as RIDICULE anyone who reads "rascism" into a display at Gettysburg or Chickamauga which includes the Cross of St. Andrew Guidon!

    But that ball was dropped by the "Sons of the Confederacy" and "Daughters of Confederate Veterans" who did NOT object when "their" flag was stolen from them in the 60s and used to express the rascist, redneck crap in the civil rights fight.

    And I have nothing against "rednecks," I have been accused by my more "civilized" liberal siblings of being one, but you should have to KNOW the historical significance of an object BEFORE you "make a statement" with it.

    I don't want to outlaw it's use or desecration, it IS our right to be ignorant, BUT...

    Wherever it was placed BY LAW to solely express, say, on a statehouse, displeasure over passing the Civil Rights Act of '64, it should be BY LAW taken down...

    I have the same issue with the Nazi Swastika. I have NO problem with it's display for Historical Reasons, but as soon as some skinhead group wears it on their arms, it's a whole 'nother story.

    But we don't mind if they wear them, but make 12 year olds learn to paint them if they build a model of a Bf 109g because we won't allow Revel to put the decals of them in the box! That is backasswards, just like the flag debate.

    There is ignorance on both sides...

    TYRVR
    Moderator
    Posts: 97
    (4/11/01 7:41:12 am)
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    And while I may agree in essence with the sentiments, sentiment is not Law, and the right to be Stupid and Racist is guaranteed under Our constitution, as well as the right to be unimpressed with the Historical significance of any flag, or symbol, only lately in the Reno Justice Dept. has there been mentioned "Symbols of Hatred" what is A symbol of hatred? A middle Finger extended? A portrait of Christ? Swastika? Star of David?... hate, being in the minds of those offended, so, when You bar one group from using A Flag or A symbol, or anything found repulsive by someone else, You have lost Freedom of Speech, and the first Amendment is null and void, and if the first Amendment falls,... can the rest survive?

    Kdubya
    Moderator
    Posts: 119
    (4/11/01 7:10:29 pm)
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    Although repulsed by those who use flags for symbols of expression (Nazi swastki, Star of David, Rising Sun, US of A, etc.) I must agree with Tye that the 1st amendment gives people the right to fly, burn, stomp, wear as clothing, etc., the flag of their choice. You start to take away that person's right to expresion, you start eroding the foundation of this country.
    My blood boils seeing people drag the Stars and Stripes thru the mud, burn it, spit on it, or wear it for a shirt or pants. As long as the 1st amendment is the law of the land, there isn't a damned thing I or anyone else can do about it.
    Someone wears the Stars and Bars on his person, sticks it to his/her pickup, or flys it in the yard - that's their right. I, along with you, know the undertone is the expression of racial intolerance by that person.
    When I tear that flag from the person's hands or try to stop him/her from wearing the particular article, then I am expressing my intolerance to that person's freedom of speech.
    Keep off the Ridgeline!!

    AntiqueDr
    Moderator
    Posts: 101
    (4/11/01 8:22:29 pm)
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    I believe Polish is espousing the need to educate these otherwise ignorant individuals as to the actual meaning of the symbol, not truly suggesting what has been rightly described as intolerance (although he, like myself, sometime feels the desire to become truly intolerant). Ideally, a person of reasonable mind and intellect, thus educated, would amend their actions of their own accord.

    Unfortunately, therein lies the rub. I would submit that a large percentage (dare I say "most") of the people who abuse the Confederate flag/symbol would not only resist this education but have probably resisted most attempts at education throughout their lives.

    And that, my friends, is the fundamental problem. Ignorance can be fixed. Stupidity cannot.


    Purveyor of Fine Firearms to the Enlightened Few
    www.apaxenterprises.com

    Xracer
    Moderator
    Posts: 133
    (4/11/01 8:53:28 pm)
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    Nicely put Doc!

    Kdubya
    Moderator
    Posts: 120
    (4/11/01 10:52:37 pm)
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    Yep - a big 10-4. You got my vote on that one, AD!
    Keep off the Ridgeline!!

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 271
    (4/13/01 12:01:18 pm)
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    Yeah, Doc well put.

    And we have a right to be both ignorant and stupid. BUT I guess I'm an optimist...

    I think we CAN educate people if we try hard enough. But I don't necessarily mean educating the "stupid."

    There are just too many people who should know better who get their information and make up their minds by what is taught in high schools or even worse, dispensed by the media, by ignorant teachers, reporters, or editors, or even worse, ones with an "agenda."

    OUR job is to keep THEM in line.

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 289
    (4/18/01 9:03:32 pm)
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    The people of Mississippi voted to keep the Cross of St. Andrews on their state flag this week.

    I can live with that...

    TYRVR
    Moderator
    Posts: 104
    (4/19/01 1:40:06 am)
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    Antique Dr. while I applaud Your ideas on educating the more radical minded in Our society, may I remind You of Your Fathers admonition,to You, on the purchase of the Belgian Smoothbore? You know the one of which I speak, something, about "polishing" something? You may find that His advice encompasses more than Firearms, A very wise Man, Your Father,
    Regards,
    Tye,

    Edited by: TYRVR at: 4/19/01 2:43:34 am
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