Covenants Old and New -Who is Israel

Discussion in 'Religious Discussions' started by Skyking, Dec 28, 2011.

  1. Skyking

    Skyking New Member

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    sorry for the confusion,I tried to take a rather large subject and condense it and that's just not possible .I thought that maybe another question would be better :
    What is the Will of the Father and how it relates to commands and covenants?

    Matthew 7:21

    21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

    How do we know what the Fathers will is where do we find it ?
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2011
  2. Insulation Tim

    Insulation Tim Well-Known Member Supporting Member

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    What is the purpose of this thread?
  3. ampaterry

    ampaterry *TFF Admin Staff Chaplain* Staff Member Supporting Member

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    Now that the OP has been completely re-written and a different question asked, this response appears to be OT -
    The original post made the point that the first covenant, the old covenant, has been replaced by the new covenant in such a way that the Jews are lost for following the old covenant, yet the New Covenant Christians are still bound by it.

    It would make things a lot simpler and clearer if the OP would not be completely re-written after it has been responded to in it's original form.


    Tim, I do not know.

    I watched the "new covenant old covenant" one.
    I used a BUNCH of my download limit on my satellite connection to look at an open bible and a pair of hands while a narator explained that he was in a "mainstream protestant church" that taught him the Ten Commandments no longer apply to today, and he has now learned they do. He said they also taught him that the word "Sabbath" is not used in the NT, and he has learned it is there.

    The whole thing could have been put in a text file that would only be a few K instead of a video file of multiple Megabytes, and it could then have been COPIED and QUOTED and COMMENTED on -
    But perhaps that is the purpose.

    I have attended a lot of churches, have been in Baptist, Apostolic, Lutherin, Presbyterian, Cumberland Presbyterian, Pentacostal Holliness, Assembly of God, and dozens more of straight-line denominations and independant ones that escape me at the moment, and I have NEVER heard ANY denomination claim the ten commandments no longer apply to us! I have attended Church of Christ that said the book of Revelation cannot be understood because it was written in some kind of code and we no longer have the key to deciphering it, but that is the only "ignore this whole book" I have ever come across.

    God made a covenant with Abram in perpetuity.
    He NO WHERE said he is breaking that covenant.
    Christ came to earth with a new covenant.
    He brought it FIRST to the Jews, then when it was not universally accepted by them, it was taken to the Gentiles, and we were allowed to be ingrafted into the root, that are Abrahams descendants.

    Yes, absolutely, two covenants - one old, to Jews ONLY, and one new to WHOSOEVER WILL, Jew or gentile.
  4. tcox4freedom

    tcox4freedom Well-Known Member Supporting Member

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    This is "How"----

    Please take this as a loving "Word" from the Lord.


    In my view (after following some of your other posts), it seems that you are trying to insinuate that people who do not hold to certain beliefs are in someway NOT true Christians.

    I'm not attacking you; so please don't feel that way. But, I believe you do NOT have a good understanding of God's "grace" and the "FREEDOM" from the "Law" that Jesus provided for us.

    Jesus the Christ was the embodiment and the FULLFILLMENT of the "Law". Through our TRUST and acceptence of what "HE" did for us in "Life, Death and Resurrection", we can now walk in that FREEDOM.

    You must come to the understanding that a "relationship" with Jesus is the only requirement we need be concerned with as Christians. If we have a TRUE relationship with Christ everything will be fullfilled through HIM.

    -
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2011
  5. RunningOnMT

    RunningOnMT New Member

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    His will is in His Word.
  6. Dan Newberry

    Dan Newberry New Member

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    Once you have His Holy Spirit, you will always know His will. You might try to talk yourself into doing something else, but you'll know in your heart what His will is.

    On discerning His will...

    Many people go about trying to discern God's will by prayer and even divination (fleece tests, which aren't unbiblical, albeit they're not step number one)... :eek: ...the problem is that most Christians don't know enough of the Word to make godly decisions. If they read and studied the Bible, they wouldn't struggle with "either/or" situations as often...

    Where most of us make mistakes is we think that God has strong opinions about many things which He actually just leaves up to us. To my study group, I call them "Burger King--McDonald's" decisions... God does not care (in most cases) whether you eat at BK or Micky D's... He will bless you in either place.

    He told the Israelites if they would hearken unto Him, that He would bless them coming and going... in every situation. I've seen young people labor in prayer over which college to go to. Then when they come away with no clear answer, they say God has not heard them... but He has heard--it's just that He would allow you to make the choice, and He will bless in either case.

    The NT makes it abundantly clear that we are not under the law any longer--but that doesn't mean that God's standards have changed. He has not changed His opinions on adultery, murder, etc. But a true believer can commit murder and not lose his salvation, because Christ has paid the price for that crime (remember, all of our sins were yet future when Christ died for them). It is by Grace that you are saved... remember King David... he murdered, but was saved by grace. :)

    This isn't cart blanch to go out and sin all we want, and Paul deals with this heavily in his epistles. Realize, however, that the reason that Paul did deal with the subject of Christian liberty was that Christian liberty was--and is--a reality.

    God will chasten those who He loves; those who are His. This is what we fear. We do not fear hell any more... :)

    Yes, there are times when God does care where we eat or what we eat or where we work or go to school, but when you pray about a matter and get no clear response from the Lord, just realize that if you serve Him, He will bless you wherever you go.

    Dan
  7. Caneman

    Caneman Active Member

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    John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."

    To put these words of Jesus in context, there were three entrances into the Jewish temple, leading from the outside all the way to the sacred core. There were entrances to the outer court, the inner court, and the Holy of Holies... these entrances were named "the Way", "the Truth", and "the Life"... the Lord Jesus is the beginning and end of all covenants with Abba Father...
  8. ampaterry

    ampaterry *TFF Admin Staff Chaplain* Staff Member Supporting Member

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    I would dearly love to get the name of that "mainstream protestant church" that is teaching heresy like this to their members.

    The ten commandments do not apply to us.

    The word "Sabbath" is not used in the New Testament.

    My gosh, I have not heard such drivel since I read that idiotic book that claimed the Bible writers saw all those miracles because they were eating psychedelic mushrooms.
    This bunch does not need PROTECTED, they need to be EXPOSED, because by hiding their identity we are as hypocritical as those "peaceful muslims" that aid the terrorists.
  9. tcox4freedom

    tcox4freedom Well-Known Member Supporting Member

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    Terry;
    I can't say what particular denomination you're talking about. But, I have a friend that is 7th Day Adventist. I've been to several Sabbath Schools with him.

    To me, it seems that what day the Sabbath falls on is the #1 edict of the church. In all the times I've been with him, I can't recall the importance of a "relationship" with Jesus being discussed, little lone emphasized.

    The main thing I came away with is 7DA is right and all denominations that have church on Sunday are wrong. Everytime I've tried to discuss the TRUE fundamentals of FAITH with them they come back to the day the SABBATH is observed has being paramount in your faith.

    I just don't know how to deal with some people that have been blinded by the "bondage" of legalism. I just think the best we can do is pray that God will open their eyes to the FREEDOM and GRACE we have in/through Jesus.

    -
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2011
  10. BlackEagle

    BlackEagle Well-Known Member Supporting Member

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    I can well believe it. I visited a PC(USA) mainstream protestant church called Knox Presbyterian Church, named after John Knox, a well known Scottish minister who lived during the 1500's. He made Mary Queen of Scots cry on occasion. The sermon was a monologue about someone who collected and hoarded sticks, but eventually learned to share them. The pastor was trying to drum up enthusiasm for an upcoming presbytery visit and wanted to encourage the people to give. The minister assured me he had made it up entirely by himself. Scripture was not prominent in the sermon.

    After the service one of the men proudly introduced himself as an elder in the church. I asked him who John Knox was. He wasn't sure, but thought he was one of the disciples. I asked where in the Bible John Knox appeared. He wasn't sure, but went to find out and came back to tell me that he was some sort of Scottish or English minister.
    I stiffled my laugh, but had my eyes opened a little--these people were attending church
    as a social function, and not for any of the reasons God gives.

    These are the churches that make people feel good by pushing their "religious" button. They need to pander to the public to keep attendance up, and will mutilate God's Word to try to make themselves more appealing to the public, and to be politically correct.

    Sorry for the rant, but I have heard entirely too much of that kind of fertiliser coming out
    of mainstream churches.

    That said, I know there are godly pastors and congregations in the mainstream denominations and they have my respect for staying on and making a difference in their denominations.
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2011
  11. Skyking

    Skyking New Member

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    some friends that have a ministry in TN and in Israel

    "I Believe" | Joshua Waller

    "I Believe" is a song that crushes the barriers of ideological differences. The foundation of an eternal righteous plan for the redemption of the whole earth begins with a special covenant to a specific people in a specific land. In the millenniums following this promise men have sought to alter, to distort, and even undo God's beautiful plan.

    This song challenges us to make a stand with the Word of God:

    He remembers His covenant forever...the word He commanded for a thousand generation...the covenant He made with Abraham...the oath He swore to Isaac. He confirmed it to Jacob as a decree, to Israel as an everlasting covenant: "To you I will give the land of Canaan as the portion you will inherit." Psalm 105:8-11

    Many of the Jewish people obviously understand this eternal promise. We see it in their actions. They have come back to the land the prophets foretold they would return to - again, the evidence of the existence of our Creator and the truth of His Word.

    At this moment in history, when the nations unite to discuss the future of the Promised Land, every person is called to make a righteous choice. Today, as we watch and listen to this song ......as we sing it ....as we witness the prophetic word confirmed ....may this be your declaration of faith in an eternal God and an eternal promise. May this song unite the hearts of every Bible believing person -- both Jew and Non-Jew - all those longing for the Redemption in Jerusalem.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jmsD904Hk8



    As we gain our footing and our strength from the covenant-filled pages of Scripture, Joshua Waller’s new song “I BELIEVE” is a moving call to action, to “STAND” for the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
    If the lyrics aren’t inspiring enough, the story of how it was written compounds its impact. This past summer of 2011, a tight band of 6 young men set out to travel across the country on a “For Zion’s Sake” tour. They spent their days and nights tirelessly sharing their experiences from the past 7 years working in the Biblical Heartland of Judea and Samaria, inspiring many to dig into their Bibles and the reach out towards the areas of need in this prophetic place.
    This team – Joshua, Caleb, and Nate Waller, Aaron and Jesse Hood, and Luke Hilton of Tennessee, have served in vineyards and olive groves in Israel, witnessing personally the restoration and reclamation of much of this land from the barren wilderness it has remained for 2,000 years!
    These young men are not only laborers in the fields of Israel but also very talented musicians. It was about half-way through this tour that Joshua was inspired to write this song. The lyrics and music all fell together in about an hour. They then played this song at every event for the rest of the tour and they were able to produce it on one of their stops in Colorado with the help of the talented Sam & Angela Spear.
    Be blessed and be inspired by this song of COVENANTS and COMMITMENT.

    Musicians: Joshua Waller, Aaron Hood, Luke Hilton
    Vocals: Joshua Waller, Zac Waller, Angela Spear
    ——
    There’s a battle raging
    With a people and a land
    Will you rage with the nations
    Or will you stand and say
    I believe in God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob
    I believe in the words of the Covenant spoken many years ago
    I believe in God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob
    I believe in the words of the Covenant spoken many years ago
    I believe
    I will stand
    Yes i will stand
    There’s a line in the sand
    Where will you stand
    There’s a choice being made
    Will you stand and say
    I believe in God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob
    I believe in the words of the Covenant spoken many years ago
    I believe in God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob
    I believe in the words of the Covenant spoken many years ago
    I believe
    I will stand
    Yes i will stand
    For the kingdom
    For the nation
    You be strong
    There’s a line in the sand
    Where will you stand….?
    www.ZionsSake.com
  12. Skyking

    Skyking New Member

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    article from Lion and Lamb

    In Sunday school, I was taught that agreements between God and men were called covenants. Everyone told me that they were special agreements but then they worked just like agreements between men. One guy promises to do something and the other guy promises to do something else. As long as both do their thing then the agreement works. But if one guy doesn’t keep his part, the agreement falls apart. They told me that covenants were conditional, namely, both guys must do their part to make it work. This seemed to make sense because they also said the same about marriage, since it is a covenant as well. Both parties must do their part and be faithful to the agreement.

    Sunday school taught me that God made a covenant with Israel, but then Israel didn’t keep the agreement, so God dropped Israel, and made a new agreement (the New Covenant) with the church. Somehow, the church has been able to keep the agreement all of these years and not make the same mistakes that Israel made.

    I have learned since that God is not a man and He does not break His covenants. Even when Israel made covenant with God and then rejected the Lord and broke His covenant, God has refused to reject them or break His covenant with them.

    If they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their forefathers, in their unfaithfulness which they committed against Me, and also in their acting with hostility against Me - I also was acting with hostility against them, to bring them into the land of their enemies - or if their uncircumcised heart becomes humbled so that they then make amends for their iniquity, then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and I will remember also My covenant with Isaac, and My covenant with Abraham as well, and I will remember the land. For the land shall be abandoned by them, and shall make up for its sabbaths while it is made desolate without them. They, meanwhile, shall be making amends for their iniquity, because they rejected My ordinances and their soul abhorred My statutes. Yet in spite of this, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them, nor will I so abhor them as to destroy them, breaking My covenant with them; for I am the Lord their God. But I will remember for them the covenant with their ancestors, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God. I am the Lord.
    Leviticus 26:40-45


    God’s covenants and agreements are truly original in this one quality – God keeps both parts of the covenants. This is why the Messiah had to pay the price of His life for us. He was keeping our part of the agreement. This didn’t begin with Moses. This began with Abraham and his agreement for all of his descendants and for the Promised Land.

    In Genesis 15 God instructed Abraham to flay and divide out five sacrifices. Abraham was made to sleep and God walked between the sacrifices. Abraham did not. This signified that God would keep His part of the agreement and Abraham’s part as well.

    Sunday school never taught me that Adonai is an awesome God who keeps His covenants forever and offers loving-kindness to those who love Him and keep His commandments.
    And I prayed to the Lord my God and confessed and said, “Alas, O Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps His covenant and lovingkindness for those who love Him and keep His commandments,”
    Daniel 9:4

    I have learned from Moses and the Messiah that God even keeps my part of the covenant and pays the price for my shortcomings.

    http://lionlamb.net/v3/YAVOHHeiscoming/2010/11

    a few scriptures that came to mind
    2 John 1:6

    6And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

    Ezekiel 11:19-20
    19“And I shall give them one heart, and put a new spirit within you. And I shall take the stony heart out of their flesh, and give them a heart of flesh, 20so that they walk in My laws, and guard My right-rulings, and shall do them. And they shall be My people and I shall be their Elohim.

    Hebrews8:8-12
    8For finding fault with them, He says, “See, the days are coming,” says Yahweh, “when I shall conclude with the house ofYisra’el and with the house of Yehudah a renewed covenant, 9not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Mitsrayim, because they did not continue in My covenant, and I dis- regarded them,” says Yahweh. 10“Because this is the covenant that I shall make with the house of Yisra’el after those days, says Yahweh, giving My laws intheir mind, and I shall write them on their hearts, and I shall be their Elohim, and they shall be My people. 11“And they shall by no means teach eachone his neighbour, and each one his broth- er, saying, ‘Know Yahweh,’ because they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12“Because I shall forgive their unright- eousness, and their sins and their lawless- nesses I shall no longer remember.”t 13By saying, ‘renewed,’ He has made thefirst old. Now what becomes old and growing aged is near disappearing.


    Daniel 9
    4And I prayed to Yahweh my Elohim, and made confession, and said, “O Yahweh, great and awesome El, guarding the covenant and the kindness to those who love Him, and to those who guard His commands. 5“We have sinned and did crookedness, and did wrong and rebelled, to turn asidefrom Your commands and from Your right- rulings.





    John 14:15
    15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.


    Luke 18:20

    20Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.



    1 John 2
    3And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

    4He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.



    1 John 5

    2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

    3For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.



    Revelation 12:17

    17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
  13. Skyking

    Skyking New Member

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    curious to exactly what the "bondage of legalism " consist of ?
  14. Python

    Python Former Guest

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    Ask them if we are saved depending on what day we attend church, or because of what Jesus did for us on the cross?
  15. Python

    Python Former Guest

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    God's will is that none should perish, but for all to believe in Jesus as Lord and to come to repentance.
  16. ampaterry

    ampaterry *TFF Admin Staff Chaplain* Staff Member Supporting Member

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    Tim will probably ring in and say what HE meant by this, but I can say what it means to me.

    The Bondage of Legalism is what a group is being hampered by when they emphasize that THEY have some ONE SINGLE thing right that everyone else has wrong.
    They select a day of the week and proclaim that everyone is wrong if they do not recognize THAT day as THE day we are to dedicate to God.
    They select ONE name for God from somewhere in Scripture and proclaim that everyone is wrong if they refer to God by any other name.

    We had visitors one Sunday when we commemorated the Lords Supper (called Communion in some churches). The man got me aside after service and castigated me because we did not have a foot-washing before sharing the bread and cup. He apparently remembered nothing of the message, the fellowship, the psalms we sang, the prayers we shared; his mind was engulfed by ONE thing which to him overshadowed all else; we had not washed each others feet before sharing the bread and the fruit of the vine.
    That, to me, is the bondage of legalism.
  17. tcox4freedom

    tcox4freedom Well-Known Member Supporting Member

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    That's a good example Terry.

    @skyking
    If I have to explain the "bondage" that Christ came and set us free from, I fear you must not "TRUELY" understand the sacrifice Jesus made for us.


    What Paul is really saying in Galations is "IF" you feel that certain OT "laws" should be followed in order for one to be saved, you then "MUST" follow ALL the LAW!

    The ENTIRE premise behind salvation through Jesus Christ and HIM alone, if the fact that "NO" part of following the LAW is capable of getting you saved; or winning you the FAVOR of of GOD.

    The ONLY way to salvation is accepting Jesus as the fullfillment & embodiment of the LAW. By believing in what JESUS did for us and cofessing HIS sacrifice and our sinfulness, we can have "ALL" the fullfillment of the law in our lives.

    Indeed, NOTHING short of this acceptance can SAVE us; nor can we TRUELY understand the "LIBERTY" which Christ has given to us through HIS sacrifice.



    I think I will also bring this passage back to your remembrance as well:

    "Emphasis" mine
    -
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2011
  18. Skyking

    Skyking New Member

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    A few good articles and videos

    The Seven Everlasting Covenants
    September/October 2005

    http://lionlamb.net/v3/YAVOHArchives/Volume11/09
    The most common argument put forth by Christians in opposition to the Torah and the Law is based on Covenant Theology. They argue that the New Covenant has replaced the Old Covenant. Our printed English Bibles are organized that way. There is an old part and new part. This has to do with their definition of “covenant.” They define “covenants” in the Old Testament more like contracts. Then there is the word “Testament” and its definition. The New Testament is treated like it is “God’s Last Will and Testament,” replacing (the Old Testament) His former Last Will and Testament. Just as governments put a new law on the books replacing an old law, Christians will say that God did the same by replacing the Law of Moses with the Law of Christ. But is this what the Bible really says? Are God’s covenants conditional like a contract? Did God make a New Last Will and “Testament” as a result of the Messiah’s death?

    What is NEW about the New Covenant?

    June 2008
    http://lionlamb.net/v3/YAVOHHeisComing/2008/06
    Does the New Covenant mean the end of Israel or mean that the Church represents a NEW fulfillment of the prophecies given to Israel? Jeremiah gave a prophecy he called the New Covenant revealing something wonderful that God had planned for the two houses of Israel, namely, the northern kingdom of Israel and the southern kingdom of Judah. It is part of God’s plan to reunite and restore the separated northern and southern kingdoms of Israel. God would make another NEW covenant with all of Israel.

    What Exactly is Replacement Theology?

    May 2008
    http://lionlamb.net/v3/YAVOHHeisComing/2008/05
    Virtually everyone in the Messianic Movement says that Replacement Theology is not correct, that it is a great teaching error of the historical church. Even Evangelical churches today deny Replacement Theology and go out of their way to prove they are “pro-Israel” in their support. For most, Replacement Theology is simply defined as “the church replacing Israel.” However, if you examine Replacement Theology a bit further, you will discover that it is much more extensive than just saying “the church has replaced Israel.” Replacement Theology is still very much with us all, including Messianic congregations. So, what exactly is Replacement Theology?

    God keeps His covenants forever

    Jim Staley - Case for the Covenant (And the Reason for the Second Coming)
    This is a very good video
    What is the purpose for the Messiah coming back the second time anyway? What is the number one goal of His heart for His people? In this teaching, Jim goes through virtually every single prophetic scripture in the entire Old Testament and many in the New that have to do with His Second Coming. From there he shows the striking and obvious conclusion that it ALL has to do with His Covenant. It is impossible to listen to this teaching and walk away believing anything other than His biggest agenda is to get us to keep His Covenant, His instructions, His "Wedding Vows"....His Torah.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cn92TmoeuY0

    NEW COVENANT OLD COVENANT
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEplLJbat2o&feature=related
  19. jack404

    jack404 Former Guest

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    Messianic Movement ?
  20. Caneman

    Caneman Active Member

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    i never really enjoy these discussions on legalism, never really seems to change any hearts... if folks want to follow rules so they can feel good about their relationship with God then so be it, and if they want to say you are wrong because you don't follow their rules then so be it...

    i only want to do right because i love Him, it won't earn me anymore favor or acceptance from the Lord than i already have right now, but i want to bear fruit just because of how awesome He is and how He good He is to me... these aren't my ideas but i like them:

    do you work (obedience) to be loved - legalism

    or do you work because of love - relationship with the Lord Jesus

    lovers always outwork workers...

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