crackshot or Crackpot?

Discussion in 'Centerfire Pistols & Revolvers' started by fleetwood1976, Jun 9, 2009.

  1. fleetwood1976

    fleetwood1976 Active Member

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    I have posted before on how Impressed I was with the Charter Pink lady .38 undercover lite I bought my wife. Well, I sprang for the slightly more manly Goldfinger model. I finally decided to take it out of the box over the weekend. I packed it while mowing the yard, placed my empty hardees cup in the back corner of the yard and when I got to a place a good 50+ yards away, I killed the hardee's cup one shot, dead. I did some more plinking with this snub nose and it is true and dead on all the time. My question is, How do you find out if you are some sort of sharpshooter. I have heard guys talk about qualifying at ranges while shooting 15 Yards or less. You can through a gun that far. what is the best way to document your shooting ability? Snub noses are supposed to shoot poorly, but for some reason I can get the most out these little charters.
  2. RunningOnMT

    RunningOnMT New Member

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    The only way I know to document your shooting ability is to compete in sanctioned matches. Taking out the Hardees cup at 50 yds is quite an accomplishment...I couldn't do it at 50 ft but it really doesn't mean a whole lot to anybody but those who witnessed it...which in this case means only you.

    Do you have any shooting clubs near you? I recently found one not far from me which I plan on joining and while I primarily just want access to their ranges to practice I understand that they have frequent tournaments in a variety of categories.
  3. artabr

    artabr New Member

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    ROMT has a good point. If you have a local range that has matches it can be a hell of a lot of fun, great pratice, and a chance to meet some like minded folks who generally are some of the nicest, most helpful people you'll ever meet.
    Look around for local IDPA matches. Steel plate and Steel Challenge matches are a hoot also. Don't worry about getting beat or beating anybody, the only person you try to beat is yourself. ;) :)

    http://www.idpa.com/dps_info.asp



    Art
  4. OBrien

    OBrien New Member

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    You bought a pink gun lol. No I'm just kidding I was thinking about getting a pink .22 to help get some of my female friends into shooting. I hope there as accurate sounds like you made out alright.
  5. carver

    carver Moderator

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    Charter does make some really good guns from time to time, I had a Bull Dog that would do the same thing. The one I have now, won't!
  6. 45nut

    45nut New Member

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    Can you shoot in those with a snubbie? I thought those matches were well regulated as to which guns you could shoot in them. But then, all I've ever shot in were cowboy shoots. :D
  7. Snakedriver

    Snakedriver New Member

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    Are you going to be try out for the part of Annie Oakley in the Wild West Show with your pink lady's pistol? Seriously though, I've never seen a short barreled revolver that shot good, it sounds like you got a good one.

    We got my wife one of those pink Walther P22's about a year ago, she loves to shoot it. Now she wants one of those pink 10/22's. It's important to her that the guns match her clothes you know! :D
  8. 38 special

    38 special New Member

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    hitting a cup at 50 yards with a snubbie is pretty rare. Ihave a detective special that could do that from a good bench rest and everything being perfect on trigger pull and the right reloads. It is really neat tohave a snubbie that is that accurate Knowing you can carry something that small yet with the potential to hit a target that small at 50 yards, is a good feeling.
    I also have one of the older Charter\arms undercover 38 special (no barrel shroud) It locks up tight like the Det. Spl. and can shoot a 1.5 inch group at 15 yards. I never tried it beyond 15 yards.
  9. fleetwood1976

    fleetwood1976 Active Member

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    Wow, to me there is no challange shooting a handgun 15 yards. I guess when you grow up in a rural area your target range is the river bottoms or the field out back you shoot greater distances. Of course, I guess you can look at it this way, I have probably shot thousands upon thousands of rounds growing up on a farm in an informal shooting arena. So, I guess that is not much different than logging in hours at the range. I was just amazed that Both of the charters I described are right on out of the box. I have a '63 cobra lightweight that will hold a pattern but consistanly shoots to the left. A flat latch smith 36 that is right on. I guess I am looking for the method used by military and police to test accuracy. I seem to just have a feel for snubbies. I had a smith 686 with and 8 3/8 inch barrel that I couldn't hit anything with. I would like to know what criteria is used when recruits qualify
  10. fleetwood1976

    fleetwood1976 Active Member

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    I am definetly man enough to carry a pink gun, or at least shoot it in the back yard when no one is looking. Ironically, the misses wanted the taurus judge for home defence. She twisted my arm and I reluctantly bought one for me, I mean her.
  11. TranterUK

    TranterUK Guest

    May I suggest some time at a range, grouping five shots at various ranges and taking the average size of the group.

    Start at maybe 15 yards and go out from there. Find out the best 5 shot group you can manage at various ranges. In the calm of a range with plenty of time you should be able to gauge your ability fairly well.
  12. delta13soultaker

    delta13soultaker New Member

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    Use an NRA SR-1 or B27 target with X-ring/rings

    For a 5-shot snub, each string will be worth 50 points.

    A shot has a max value of 10 points each. (A bullet that cuts the 9 ring is worth 9 points...a bullet that cuts the 7 ring is worth 7 points. ///It is easier to score quickly by subtraction from the string value. A bullet that cuts the 9 ring is minus 1 point....a bullet that cuts the 7 ring is minus 3 points. Either way...the score works out the same, adding each shot value or subtracting from the string value. Example: 5 hits in the 8 ring is 40 points.)

    You'll need black tape to cover you holes after each scoring.

    Record each string.

    What you are doing is competing against yourself.

    Once proficient, now add in a timer. (Say 5 shots in 20 seconds. Later in 15 seconds. Then in 10, then 5. Eventually you can go back to 30 and add in a reload, then to 20 etc.)

    Further, once proficient, raise your heart rate prior to fire. Spring 100 meters, load, then fire. (With your heart rate over 100 BPM, initially a close 10 or 15 meter target will seem like 100 meters away:) )

    This technique requires discipline, but the satisfaction can be enormous. It is tedious, but your skill will sharpen many fold. You will do more walking than shooting if you apply this to an M4.

    The key is always compete against yourself (with this technique), and when you can beat yourself consistently you are ready to add more stress.

    This is the technique the most proficient organizations in the US Army use from post-selection throughout service cycles in those organizations. It can be adapted to nearly any handgun or rifle. It is just one technique among several, but it is one I've believed to be irreplaceable.

    This is not a quick shake-'n'-bake training technique. We would apply 40 hours a week to this as often as possible. Weapon skill is a perishable skill like any other...as you return to this you'll see your score has declined, but by the end is sharper. Spreading this technique out over the long term returns more benefit than binging on it occasionally. (It is implied to maintain a dated line-by-line log of your scores in a notepad.)

    I went beyond your question about just documenting and got on a tangent about training. Hope I helped; no intention of insulting any intelligence.
  13. zfk55

    zfk55 New Member

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    We've had a registered range here for years. A cup at 50 yards with a snubby beats every shooter who's ever fired on this range. Congrats!
  14. fleetwood1976

    fleetwood1976 Active Member

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    Delta13,

    I happen to have a stack of about 500 paper scoring targets with pull off tabs for gun and score info. I will try them out. I will train with the ultra lite charter arms and see how it ages over time and use compared to my colt and smith counterparts. It is a good feeling to pick up a weapon and know exactly what you can accomplish with it under any conditions.

    I deer hunt with a single shot 12ga. My objective is to take a deer. I have practiced with the gun enough to know its limitations and therefore know if I am going to hit the deer before I shoot.
  15. fleetwood1976

    fleetwood1976 Active Member

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    I had a wittness, too. It was a lucky shot to some extent. But I would think I could keep a 5 inch cluster at that range pretty consistantly. I think I am just a snub freak or something. They just fit my hand perfect and they are like a part of me and easy to aim and shoot.
  16. zfk55

    zfk55 New Member

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    We've all had those lucky shots. I thought you were talking about hitting it consistently at that range, a feat rather rare and unusual. This one is a good read and typical.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Revolver Accuracy by Alpha Precision, Inc.

    As with other firearms, accuracy of the revolver is dependent upon several factors. First, the bullet must be the correct diameter with relation to the cylinder chamber throats, and the interior barrel dimensions (the groove diameter is most often referenced, but bore diameter is important as well). When cast bullets are used, the bullet should be .0005 to .0010"larger than the barrel groove diameter. Ideally, the cylinder throat will be .0005 to.0010" larger than the bullet. To illustrate, Douglas .44 handgun barrels typically have a groove diameter of .429". The cast bullet should be .4295 to .4300". The cylinder throats should then be .4300 to .4305". Jacket bullets are more tolerant and can be groove diameter + .0010. Cylinder throats .0010" larger than bullet diameter.

    When cylinder throats are undersize, they can be enlarged by reaming, lapping, or honing. If they are oversize, larger diameter bullets are an answer. Also, the cylinder can be rechambered to a larger caliber and the barrel rebored to the larger caliber (the barrel can be replaced, of course), or a custom cylinder with correct dimensions made. Cast bullets should be sized for proper throat fit, not barrel fit.

    In common with rifles and pistols, the barrel crown and leade (the "funnel" area just in front of the bullet seat which aligns the bullet to the bore) must be concentric with the barrel bore. Considering arms where the chamber is cut in the barrel, the leade is usually concentric. Not necessarily so with revolvers, for the leade is the barrel forcing cone, and it is seldom concentric with the bore and almost never with the chambers, unless the chambers are line-bored. The crowns of most factory guns are off a little.

    Some lack of concentricity can be tolerated and still produce a level of accuracy that is acceptable and expected. We have varying levels of acceptance depending upon the gun. One would have greater expectations for a bench rifle than a scoped bolt rifle. And the scoped bolt rifle would be expected to shoot tighter groups than an open sighted lever rifle. In handguns, one would have higher expectations from a long barrel large revolver (i.e. S&W 29 or Ruger Super Blackhawk) than a 2" snub nose revolver. One could hope for 3 to 4 inch 50 yard groups with the former and perhaps the same group size at 15 yard with the latter. The spin imparted by the rifling has a gyroscopic effect the bullet will true itself in flight as long as the errors are not too great. An example is a rifle shooting groups at 200 yards almost as small as 100 yards. The bullet is said to "go to sleep" as it stabilizes.

    The bench rifle barrel crown will be close to perfectly concentric. The others mentioned, good enough. Often, good enough is not, though, for the perfectionist or customers of the custom gunsmith. A revolver will almost always shoot more accurately when the barrel is recrowned and the forcing cone recut, assuming the work is done correctly and the cuts are concentric with the bore. Improperly done, the new cuts will simply follow the original with no improvement. The amount of improvement will depend upon how poor the original was, and how concentric the recuts are. A realistic expectation is 10 to 15% group size reduction using the typical S&W or Ruger.

    Taylor Throating is offered in .22, .32, .357/.38, .40, .41, .44, .45, and .475 calibers. Essentially, the barrel throat is lengthened one and one half to two calibers, and enlarged to slightly over groove diameter. The throat serves as the throat in a rifle barrel, enabling the bullet to become perfectly aligned with the bore before engaging the rifling. The "choking" effect present from tightening the barrel into the frame is removed as well. The rifling leade is a very gentle 1 ½ degrees. On average, when tested before and after using a Ransom Rest, 50 yard groups have been reduced 40 to 50%. The improvement is there using both cast and jacket bullets. I have not detected a change in velocity using cast bullets. Before and after chronographing is within standard deviation of each test. Using jacket bullets, there is a slight loss, less than 50 fps in all the tests I’ve conducted. If the barrel cylinder gap is adjusted to minimum at the same time the Taylor Throating is done, there will not be a velocity loss with jacket bullets, usually a gain of 25 to 50 fps.

    I am convinced Taylor Throating produces the greatest accuracy improvement value available. Line-bore chambering will produce the most accurate revolvers, but the cost is prohibitive for many. When the barrel is accurately recrowned; the forcing cone recut concentric to the bore; Taylor Throating is almost as accurate as line-bore chambering with a savings of several hundred dollars. Line-bore chambering is accomplished by chambering each chamber in exact line with the bore, as the cylinder is locked as rigidly as it will be when the revolver is shot. The lock-up is achieved using the revolver’s own components. A slow process to be sure, but it does produce the most accurate revolver.

    There is often an accuracy improvement by rebarreling with a match grade premium barrel. How great the improvement, again, depends on how good or bad the original was. We use Douglas (blue only), Shilen (stainless or blue), and Pac-Nor (blue only). The quality of these three manufacturers is tops, and the choice is usually availability, finish, twist, etc. The reasons for improvement can be many. Often the bore of the factory barrel is not concentric with the barrel threads. Factory cylinders are produced by the thousands with the assumption the bore of the barrel will be in the center of the threaded hole in the frame, the chambers are (hopefully) an equal distance from the center of the cylinder, all of whom will line up with the barrel. If the bore is not in the right place the bullet will obviously become deformed when slamming into a side of the forcing cone.

    Again, the gyroscopic effect of the bullet spin comes to the rescue, and the revolver will shoot better than one might expect, but not as well as it would with proper alignment. A smoother, slightly larger forcing cone will often help, especially in conjunction with Taylor Throating. The Taylor Throating aligns the bullet with the bore so it starts spinning straight instead of hitting the rifling off-center. Often, the factory barrel has a "choke" in the threaded area due to over tightening. The bullet will be squeezed at the breech end and be undersized for the rest of its travel down the barrel. As stated earlier, Taylor Throating removes the choking effect.

    There is benefit locking the cylinder tight at the time of ignition. When the lock-up is tight, the variables inherent with multi-chambers trying to align with a single barrel will be reduced, leading to greater accuracy. However, it is possible to make the lock-up too tight; as the bullet leaves the cylinder and enters the barrel, it will try to align itself by moving the cylinder into alignment. If there is just enough tolerance to align, and little excess, the ideal in chamber alignment has been achieved. If there is not enough tolerance, the chamber will be locked out of alignment, the bullet will hit the side of the forcing cone, become distorted and be inaccurate.




    Alpha Precision, Inc.
    3238 Della Slaton Road
    Comer, Georgia 30629

    Jim Stroh, Pistolsmith 1996 Pistolsmith of the Year
    American Pistolsmiths Guild NRA Custom Handgun Instructor
    (706) 783-2131 fax (706) 783-2132

    -------------------------------------------------------------

    There are always exceptions to the norm.
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2009
  17. artabr

    artabr New Member

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    I don't know, but I would think a snubbie would be legal for a IDPA since that's it's primary use.
    I've never shot IDPA. I have shot IPSC and Steel Challenge. Lots of fun and lots of great folks.

    Edit:
    I just checked the IDPA rules. Snubbies are good to go. Check pages 24,25 & 26 of the pdf in the link.

    http://www.idpa.com/Documents/IDPARuleBook2005.pdf




    Art
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2009
  18. fleetwood1976

    fleetwood1976 Active Member

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    Another lucky shot. I was out mowing saturday armed with my trusty charter goldfinger, and placed a glass bottle in the back of the property and after a countless number of trips around the yard, I picked a spot about 30 yards away while on the rolling lawn mower and another one shot one kill.
  19. J.R.

    J.R. New Member

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    shooting a cup at 50yds with a snubby is great. i can barely see a cup at 50 yds let alone shoot it. being in a wheelchair i practice mostly at 7ft to 25ft. i was told by a district attorney unless your assailant is firing at you at 25ft you should be somewhat safe at 25ft or more.