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Datas don't match

2K views 27 replies 10 participants last post by  Thumb 
#1 · (Edited)
I'm going to load up a few rounds of .380 Auto and I'm looking at four different handbooks, Lyman's #49, Speer's #14, Alliant Data, and then Handload's.com

I'll be using Unique powder(All I have), and Remington 88gr JHP bullets.

I have reloaded .380 a couple weeks ago and had to keep my COAL under .970" because anything equal to that or over does not fit into my magazine. I was able to chamber and shoot with COAL's of .960" to .968" with no problems so I will be using a COAL in the area of .964".

Problem is that each of these 4 reloading data are different with a couple where the max load of one is the starting load of another which is where I'm confused. Here's what I'm looking at:

Speer #14 Data: Start 4.1gr max 4.6gr OAL .970 GDHP
Lyman #49 Data: Start 2.5gr max 3.4gr OAL .925 JHC
Alliant Unique Data: 4.6gr OAL .970" 90gr Speer GDHP
Handload.com Data: Start 3.6gr max 4.0gr OAL .960" 88gr JHP

What I am getting from this and correct me if I'm wrong is that the longer the OAL is then you use more powder or shorter the less powder all because of pressure.

I'm planning on trying out some loads with a COAL of .964: with 3.4gr of powder and work up to 3.7gr with the same COAL. How does that sound?

OH, if it matters I'll be shooting these in a Ruger LCP
 
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#2 · (Edited)
Well (again), data from different manuals will be different because different testing equipment used, different methods, different measuring methods (CUP vs PSI), and some use guns, and some use universal receivers. All bullets, even of the same weight and designation (JRN, JHP, LRN, etc.) are not the same so load data will differ also. Same with OAL, which will differ with different manufacturer's bullets.

So, having said all that, I'd recommend, if you're concerned with powder charges, start with the lowest load available and load a few to make sure they will cycle your gun. Also, remove the barrel and use it as a gauge to determine OAL (plunk test). I think I'd start with a bullet seating depth that will just fit the magazine, and shorten from there, if needed.
 
#4 ·
I've used alliants data for some 357 loads using power pistol powder. Started at 1.5gr lower than what was listed for bullet weight and the charge they had listed built too much pressure and the spent cases had to be knocked out of the chamber with quite a bit of force. I would start some where in the middle of the road and work up to the max charge checking for pressure signs along the way. A semi auto will most likely not run on a minimum charge.
 
#6 ·
Yep, it's called the starting load 'cause that's where it's recommended to start. The pros at the test lab (those hired by powder manufacturers and bullet manufacturers, using all that big $$$$ test equipment) have determined where a good, safe starting point is for all firearms chambered for a particular round. Some powders are not safe with a lighter load and some firearms won't function with lighter loads. There is no down side to starting low, just a bit more reloading (a good thing). If you're in a hurry to determine a "perfect" load for your gun, I'd say stick to factory stuff and try different manufacturers. Or just keep reloading (fun) and work up loads (fun) and record and compare the results (fun).

Jes an old reloader's opinion...
 
#7 · (Edited)
Just got back from the range today and tested out 4 different loads for the Ruger 380 LCP. Here is what I loaded up:

Using CCI 500 primers and Remington 88gr JHP.

1. 3.7gr with COAL .965"
2. 3.8gr " " "
3. 3.9gr " " "
4. 3.4gr " " .960"

All chambered, shot, and ejected with no problems at all and held at least a 4" group at 15 yards.

So I'm thinking just for target practice I'll go with the lighter load of 3.4gr just to save powder.
 
#8 ·
Never start at "middle of the road." Dammit, it's called a starting load for a reason.
Well where would you start if you had 4 different minimum charge weights and 2 of the minimum were another's listed max charge and another one that was almost max??? You have one minimum charge of 2.5gr and another minimum charge of 4.1gr would you start at 2.5 or 4.1? I personally would start some where between the two, hence middle of the road.
 
#13 ·
Well where would you start if you had 4 different minimum charge weights and 2 of the minimum were another's listed max charge and another one that was almost max??? You have one minimum charge of 2.5gr and another minimum charge of 4.1gr would you start at 2.5 or 4.1? I personally would start some where between the two, hence middle of the road.
You start at the lowest. If the listed loads are for the exact same components (powder, bullet manufacturer and exact same bullet, and primer), start with the lowest listed powder charge. Do a search on why loading manuals differ.

What's wrong with starting low? Is there an "un-manly" aura attached to low powered loads? Are you in a hurry to find the "perfect" load? What is the down side for trying 6 loads instead of 3? Do you consider extra loads a waste of components? What are you gonna do when you reach your "perfect" load? Stop reloading and shooting (stll gonna be using components when you "arrive")? I like reloading. I like shooting. I like recording and comparing loads. No downside for me to try 6 or 10 loads when "working up" a load...
 
#15 ·
What's wrong with starting low? Is there an "un-manly" aura attached to low powered loads? Are you in a hurry to find the "perfect" load? What is the down side for trying 6 loads instead of 3? Do you consider extra loads a waste of components? What are you gonna do when you reach your "perfect" load? Stop reloading and shooting (stll gonna be using components when you "arrive")? I like reloading. I like shooting. I like recording and comparing loads. No downside for me to try 6 or 10 loads when "working up" a load...
I would suspect there's nothing "un-manly" about starting low, but from seeing others post questions asking why their semi auto hand gun jams when using a minimum charge it would appear a lot of the firearms won't function on a minimum charge. Also having not enough powder in a case is just as dangerous as having too much.
 
#17 · (Edited)
Get the bullets out of the barrel? Like 1.0gn of powder? That's all it takes--just a bit more than primer-only.
That can be a very dangerous blanket statement noylj.
For the cartridges that Thumb is working with, I would agree that a 1.0gr charge will probably enough to clear the barrel...but it's well below the listed minimum and I'm not going to try it. :) You might also run into that freaky little phenomenon called detonation where a too-light charge might cause an extremely high pressure situation.

I will agree with what the others have said about coorelating the data between different manuals and which one to choose.
That's just something that you pick up with time and experience. My recommendation to any new reloader is to be cautious when cross-referencing data...and if all else fails ask questions from others that have been at it a longer time.

Back to Thumb's results from his test loads...
If the 3.4gr load will cycle the action, is consistent and accurate, and hitting close enough to point-of-aim for Thumb's liking I don't see any reason to not use it.
Me being the type of person that likes to try and dial in the best load possible, I would do some longer term testing with each of the candidate loads just to further narrow down the best load.
Saving .4gr per charge or so doesn't break down to very much price difference until you start loading many rounds, so I'd still lean in favor of the best load even if it's a wee bit heavier :)
 
#18 ·
I will be loading many more and testing especially different bullets but the 3.4gr load seems to work just fine and really no difference in performance. Now if I'm looking more for penetration then I would have to do different tests and most likely use a heavier load I would think but just for plinking and having fun at the range I'm happy with what I came up with. I also know that I can live with a little bit of difference of powder and COAL also at that load so if I'm off just a tad in measuring I don't have to worry although I'm planning on staying as close to that as possible.
 
#19 ·
Reloading takes common sense. If you load up 100 at a time with an unknown load, expect to pull 95 apart. Cycling is taken into consideration when listing a starting load, it's not just a random powder charge. If one gets a "jam" (talking about a "stove pipe jam"?) from a light load, then one has learned something about their gun.

When shooting new reloads, it is foolish to just bang away as if factory ammo is being used, and I test all my new loads before I load a bunch and fire away. Mistakes are made, and my guns will differ from the test lab's universal receiver, so mebbe, just mebbe a light load will stove pipe (BTW, of my 4 semi-auto I reload for, starting with starting loads, I've had only one stove-pipe and that was with my P90 with stiff recoil spring). No danger and if I was smart and only loaded a few, I wouldn't have a problem just pulling 5 or 10 cartridges.
 
#22 ·
Does any one have lab-verified proof of this mystical "detonation?"
The Starting load is NOT a minimum load. It is usually a 10-12% reduction from max or simply a pressure/velocity the manual folks wanted to use.
All I ever read about detonation is the theory but no body had been able to reproduce in the lag. Even putting half the powder at the front of the case and half the powder at the read of case couldn't do it.
I can not imagine any way while shooting to ever even come close to that.
I've only been loading 40 years and played with lots of light charges. All I've ever seen is that as I go down in charge weight, I get better accuracy by moving to a faster powder.
You should do all your testing with a couple of inert rounds and verify fit and feeding before you ever bring powder or primers to the press.
Please, if you all don't want to start with the lowest starting load, feel free to warn those around you.
 
#23 ·
Does any one have lab-verified proof of this mystical "detonation?"
The Starting load is NOT a minimum load. It is usually a 10-12% reduction from max or simply a pressure/velocity the manual folks wanted to use.
All I ever read about detonation is the theory but no body had been able to reproduce in the lag. Even putting half the powder at the front of the case and half the powder at the read of case couldn't do it.
I can not imagine any way while shooting to ever even come close to that.
I've only been loading 40 years and played with lots of light charges. All I've ever seen is that as I go down in charge weight, I get better accuracy by moving to a faster powder.
You should do all your testing with a couple of inert rounds and verify fit and feeding before you ever bring powder or primers to the press.
Please, if you all don't want to start with the lowest starting load, feel free to warn those around you.
Read Ackley's works. It has been documented to happen in bottleneck rifle cartridges. As for in small capacity pistol cartridges, I haven't seen any confirmation on paper either, BUT the same conditions can occur in one of those as can in a larger case...just on a different scale.

With compounds that do not react in a nice smooth linear fashion I don't wander very far outside the "normal conditions" that have been tested in a lab with better equipment than I have and I for darned sure am not going to recommend for a new reloader to go venturing outside the ranges of tested, published data. Smokeless powder doesn't react in a linear fashion, not even a logarithmic fashion...those are both predictable. It reacts in an unknown exponential level that is determined by all the other variables in the formula (the loading data).

A light pistol load might not contain enough energy to cause a catastrophic malfunction.
BUT if someone else wanders across the internet and stumbles in here and figures that he's good to go to use a light charge of 8gr of IMR4350 in a .243Win as it should make a dandy little rat load that fellow will be in for a nasty surprise when his rifle grenades on the 6th shot (or the 1st...you don't know). That is the reason I posted the warning. Not everyone will take your "a light charge will get the bullet out of the barrel" as just applying to Thumb's particular situation.
 
#24 ·
The Starting load is NOT a minimum load. It is usually a 10-12% reduction from max or simply a pressure/velocity the manual folks wanted to use.
All I ever read about detonation is the theory but no body had been able to reproduce in the lag.
Also...there ARE some loads listed in manuals that are clearly labeled as "Minimum safe load, DO NOT REDUCE!".
Those aren't just arbitrary 10% reductions of the max charge. Those are warnings that there was erratic performance below those load levels.

Again, a case of how blanket statements can be dangerous out here on the net...both you and me probably know what we mean, but the next fellow that stumbles into the thread can take what we're talking about out of context and get himself into a dangerous situation.
 
#26 ·
Thanks for all this info and insight guys. I'm glad I asked this question and am probably not the first but it looks like from the answers that there is no perfect answer for everyone.
When I first started loading my own pistol ammo, things were a lot more simple! I bought Hornady bullets to reload, so I used a Hornady reloading manual!
 
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