Deep Carry: Which do you recommend?

Discussion in 'Self Defense Tactics & Weapons' started by FranklyTodd, Nov 27, 2007.

?

P-3AT vs. Smith lightweight .38 for POCKET carry

  1. Kel-tec P-3AT

    23 vote(s)
    35.9%
  2. Smith J-frame (scandium or titanium)

    41 vote(s)
    64.1%
  1. obxned

    obxned New Member

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    A snub-nosed .38 has only a bit more horsepower than a modern .380 defensive load. With either, you had better count on putting holes where they are needed, and 7 (or 13 with a spare mag) holes beats 5 holes.
  2. stash247

    stash247 New Member

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    Obxned, my young new friend, let me tell you a secret: The first shot's the charm; if you shoot a hole in me, and do not take me off my feet, I'm likely gonna be pissed off!
    Magazine capacity etc is not the issue; rather the capacity for an accurate first shot, from whatever weapon, is.
    If I can put the first round on the bridge of your nose, nobody but the coroner is even gonna ask about the caliber, because you are in 'permanent time out'
    Practice, and familiarity,is far more important than power; my TPH, in 22 LR, is far from 'king of the hill' in power, but lives with me, like my dogs, 24/7,and like them, is regularly exercised.
    Hell, my little dogs, Australian Cattle Dogs, known here as red and blue 'Heelers', are subcaliber critters, by many descriptions, yet a 40# dog came close to killing a 75# pit bull, three weeks ago.
    Use what works, for you!
  3. UncleFudd

    UncleFudd Member

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    Just a thought or two from an old man with years of helping others choose their self defense handguns.
    I own an indoor range and spend my days (7 days a week) helping with these choices so I would like to make a comment or perhaps give some food for thought.
    We are putting these things on to carry, to have with us at all times. The thought is we might at any given moment have to use it to threaten or to actually use deadly force. Stop or kill another human being.
    This assumes we can hit what we are forced to shoot at and therein lies my concern.
    I watch people of all experience and knowledge levels perform with their chosen firearms every day. Keep in mind this is under ideal conditions. Something you WILL NOT have when your threat takes place.
    I believe based upn actual gunfights that we place way to much emphasis on calibers or knockdown power or stopping power. you have all heard the buzz words. Actually meaningless if you do not hit what you are forced to shoot at. The only thing that will count as Stash has alluded is a HIT, one good solid at least HIT.
    Putting one of these things on our person also implies we have the acccuracy, ability training etc to hit what we shoot at every single shot. WE OWE it to ourselves, our loved ones and everyone on the street or around our attack scenario to hit only the intended target. Third party hits are never justified and wouldn't it be something to hit one of our own while attempting to stop the bad guy. Happens all the time and we just cannot afford to let it happen to us.
    So think about this while making the choices mentioned above in this thread. if the gun is too big or small or too loud (for our ladies) or too much recoil, we simply will not shoot it to become good with it in the first place and enough to stay as good as we must be.
    Along with this remember that you are being attacked or you would not be shooting to begin with. Something very, very bad is happening or threatened to happen right now. It is in your face. You have been shot, stabbed, cut, beaten, kicked, knocked on your ass and trying to regain your footing. Now during any or all of the above, you are trying to bring your firearm to bear on the situation.
  4. UncleFudd

    UncleFudd Member

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    continuation.

    I am sorry gys I accidently hit the send button too soon. In all this horrible, painful turmoil you MUST make a hit, one single, At least , HIT. Right in the face. Forget about all the center of mass BS it will not stop your threat, only piss him off and it will not matter what caliber he is hit with. One good solid head shot.
    WHAT GUN CAN YOU FIGHT WITH? This is the choice. Yes you want to shoot the biggest cal you can comfortable handle. But first find one that fits, then find the caliber. Go to a range that has a rental program and shoot everything they have in the counter. It will be the best money you have spent. find a gun that feels good to you, not your friend or neighbor. Remember what I said about shooting, keep it in mind as it plays a much greater part than you might imagine. Then shoot it a lot, a lot. You must be so familiar with your gun that every action in its' operation is done without conscious thought. Its' operation is instinctive. Become so good yo can hit your target in the face at distances you find in the rooms of your own home. That is where your attack will most likely take place. Get that good and then shoot enough to stay that good all the time.

    I hope this makes sense. I answer questions about choice more than any other question that I get all day every day. I am not very articulate nor am I any good with computers and typing. But I am serious about helping people choose the right firearm for their self defense.

    Take care and best to every one of you.

    Kenny
  5. TranterUK

    TranterUK Guest

    Deep Carry is a great subject but prompts other questions. Deep to evade a quick search? Deep with easy, quick access (cant do it in my book) Deep with comfort? Will you compromise calibre and capacity for 'deep carry'? Dont forget secure carry, you dont want your shiny new Smith appearing out of your pants leg at the drugstore checkout.

    UncleFudd gives sound advice and suggests a shot to the face. Good idea but not as a first, it's a small target and moves about quickly. If you can, I was taught to go inside the triangle, eye, eye, mouth. SELF DEFENSE ONLY PLEASE. Sorry if that sounds patronising, but I have a story that would explain my wanting to say that.
    Last edited by a moderator: May 23, 2008
  6. hornblower

    hornblower New Member

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    S&W M&P 340 CT Re: Deep Carry: Which do you recommend?

    I have, and I carry, a S&W M&P 340 CT.

    I carry it everyday, everywhere I go.

    It is about 13 ounces unloaded.

    I carry it in a Mikka Square Cut Pocket Holster and it is virtually invisible in shorts, kakkis, and dress pants.

    It is loaded with 3 38 Special +P and 2 .357 Magnum Speer Gold Dot for short barrel.

    Also, I carry a Bianchi speed strip with a backup to the rounds loaded in the 340.

    The gun and the holster are great.

    I practice drawing it from the pocket and the Mikka holster remains in the pocket everytime.

    I don't feel undergunned in the least.

    I believe that the S&W is better made than either the Ruger LCP or the Kel-Tec, but that is just my opinion from reading extensively on many of the gun forums.

    I do not own, nor have I fired either of the other two guns.

    In the end, perhaps it comes down to personal preference.
  7. I find it interesting that you mention the issue of comfort, Tranter, for I feel it is an often overlooked factor. Humans being humans, the weapon that is uncomfortable to carry is usually the one that gets left at home . . . where it is rather unlikely to do one much good if a confrontation occurs. I do not discount the other important issues--caliber, etc.--, but I do believe that a daily carry weapon must be small and light enough not to be overly intrusive. This is one reason I have long been a staunch advocate of the 2" .38 snubbie for regular carry. Let's be honest, if one KNEW he was going to be involved in a firefight, he would probably pack a 12 gauge and be done with it. Carrying one of those daily, however, does tend to cause talk. ;):D
  8. TranterUK

    TranterUK Guest

    Pistol, the comfort factor is a big one, especially in hot, humid areas. A heavy weapon, even with a good quality holster and belt becomes a pain. Though not my favourite handgun the best I ever had for carry was the one you mention, a .38 S&W J Frame 'Airweight'. It was so light it never pulled at clothes and you just forgot it was there, but it was. :cool:

    If anyone on the forum is interested in deep carry I highly recommend Andy at Horseshoe Leather in the UK. Checkout his web site and look at the deep cover items. He really is the best, but has a waiting list. :)
    Last edited by a moderator: May 24, 2008
  9. sabashimon

    sabashimon New Member

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    Great thread, and thank you UncleFudd for some wise words.
  10. user

    user New Member

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    In looking over this thread again, I figured out what it was I didn't like about it to begin with. The choices in the poll are between a specific model of a gun with a quality control rating of "adequate" (my opinion), versus a very general list of good-value revolvers, even given the alloy frame limitation. The Kel-Tec would no doubt be more useful than a S&W model 317, which while it's an alloy J frame, is chambered in .22 LR.; the M&P 360 (msrp=$900.00 or so), would be a very competent alternative, but at three times the cost of the Kel Tec. Or perhaps a 340PD, msrp over a thousand?

    It's a specific apple to citrus-varieties generally sort of choice.

    And as to the options as limited (kel tec v. alloy frame revolver), I wouldn't buy either one for myself.
  11. conan1

    conan1 New Member

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    I know it hasn't been out long but the Ruger LCP is much better than the Keltec 3AT. I recommend Remington Golden Sabers 102 grain HP's in this gun.
  12. CampingJosh

    CampingJosh Well-Known Member

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    How do you mean better, Conan?
    I don't really have experience with either of them, but I've been looking at both of these guns recently as a full-time pocket pistol. I was leaning toward the Keltec simply because it's been around long enough that any real problems should have surfaced by now and nothing major has.

    I really would like to hear a comparison of the two from someone who has used them both.
  13. Bill DeShivs

    Bill DeShivs Active Member

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    I'll admit the Ruger LOOKS better than the Keltec, but they are the same gun. There is nothing wrong with Keltec.
  14. travihanson

    travihanson New Member

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    I like stopping power, so I would have to choose the smith's. The air-weight in .357, running .38+p's. Don't get me wrong I love Auto's, but something that small, your not going to find something with the stopping power of a .357 in an auto. If it had to be auto, it would be the MK40.
  15. stash247

    stash247 New Member

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    Travi, in a two inch gun, a .357 is one hell of a flashlight, but does not have enough 'pipe' to develop velocity, so energy is down, at or below the level of a +P 9mm round from, say, a MK9, by Kahr.
    The advantage I see in the five shot Smiths, is weight, and 'form factor' making them much more difficult to identify, carried well.
    My Mk9 is close to two pounds, loaded, my little three inch Smith, under a pound!
    If I expect trouble, everything moves in the other direction; a 5" 1911, strong side, high and aft, with a compact 1911, Left side, butt forward.
    All shoot the same ammo, and can share the full size mags, so this could be a serious party.
  16. infidel_2_dabone

    infidel_2_dabone New Member

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    Try 125 gr. jhp's you pick the brand, and if thats to much recoil/muzzle flip back it down to just plain old .38.Reason being I didn't feel much difference with the .38 +p and the .357 mag loads
    The follow up 2nd shot comes much quicker than with full house .357 or .38+p.
    Also you may want to ship it of to magnaport, for about another $300 they will port the barrel and do a custom trigger job. Thats what I did and I 'm very pleased now!
    Good Luck!
  17. graehaven

    graehaven Active Member

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    Absolutely true!

    In fact, the Keltec P-11 (9 mm) weighs the same or less than the S&W 642 and gives you twice the rounds. Plus, it's light and easy to conceal/carry all day long.
  18. getgot

    getgot New Member

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    Ruger LCP .380...any day
  19. Old Timer

    Old Timer New Member

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    This one is too good to pass up. Doesn't Taurus or somebody make a .45/70 pistol that would look good in an ankle holster, with gym shorts? First, define deep carry. To me that means a hide-out or back-up gun. Mine used to be a AMT .380 ACP. Of a nice size, but weighing a whopping 18 oz. After I stopped needing (if I ever did) a back-up gun Kel-Tec brought out its P-32. I've carried it in a Bianchi ankle holster. Works good, where a S&W M-36 flopped around (before aluminum frames) like a loose anchor. You hardly know you are carrying the 6 oz P-32. I actually had a son (drug task force) who carried a Glock 27 in an ankle holster. He still walks funny. I often today carry a aluminum framed S&W snubby in my coat pocket. Deep carry was the service auto lodged in a shoulder holster under my overcoat and suit coat on bad weather days years ago. I had to call a King's X just to retrieve that gun so I could play too. How embarrassing. After that my S&W M-36 went into my right overcoat/parka pocket. If you survive, you learn.
    Deep carry is carry so deep it is invisable to anything except a serious search. It is a gun which by necessity is difficult to reach, worn to back up your primary gun after your loose it, or as primary in situations where a gun is an absolute no-no. It is concealed in such a way that a routine search will not expose it. That usually means ankle or crotch carry for the boys. Somebody gave me a little harness (looks it was made for my Jack Russell) that clips to my short's waistband and hangs a small autoloader right over my pubic hair. Wait a minute and I'll whip it out for you; zip, fumble, cuss, ouch, but it is deep.
    Back-up guns were big after the Onion Field thing. I knew a DC narc who carried three guns and would have carried four, but three was all he had.
    Admittedly, I've never carried a deep carry gun on duty when it was primary; one tiny gun against the big, bad world, and it buried in some unmentionabloe place, but then I was never a narc cop either. They are wierd and live in a paranoid world all their own. Know the difference between deep carry and concealed carry. There's no point in discussing concealed carry guns. Some yahoo with an extended slide 1911A or Desert Eagle .50 cal would be offended. Old Timer

    Old Timer
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2008
  20. TranterUK

    TranterUK Guest

    Ah ankle holsters. I have thoughts..

    Have you ever worn one? I have and it felt really weird, kinda out of balance. Perhaps one should wear a weight on the other leg to even things out. But then you may as well have a second gun on the other ankle, no point in heaving about a pointless weight.

    The first time someone gave me one it had a sort of wool fleece on the inside for comfort. One other guy who saw me with it asked if I had shot it myself!

    I also had a friend who was an American Narc Cop, I can still see him hopping down the middle of the road trying to release his ankle gun as the suspect car sped away !!!!
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