Did Daley Plaza change your mind?

Discussion in 'General Military Arms & History Forum' started by polishshooter, May 9, 2007.

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Have you toured Dealey Plaza, and do you believe there was a JFK "Conspiracy?"

  1. I HAVE been to Dealey Plaza, the Depository and the Grassy Knoll and think Oswald acted alone.

    7 vote(s)
    25.9%
  2. I HAVE been to Dealey Plaza, seen it all, and STILL believe there was a conspiracy.

    2 vote(s)
    7.4%
  3. I have NOT been to Dealey Plaza, but think Oswald acted alone.

    7 vote(s)
    25.9%
  4. i have NOT been to Dealey Plaza, and still believe there was a conspiracy.

    11 vote(s)
    40.7%
  1. polishshooter

    polishshooter Active Member

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    My visit last week to Dealey Plaza absolutely convinced me Oswald acted alone, even though I resisited the notion since 1963...until then I just KNEW there had to have been a conspiracy to kill JFK.


    Let's see if it affected you the same way, and at the same time see how many of those who still believe in a "conspiracy" whether or not they have toured the Book Depository and the Grassy Knoll in person....

    I think this might be enlightening.

    I for example ALWAYS thought it was too tough a shot for a wack job with a crappy rifle like the Carcano, but never really realized how CLOSE the shots were....only one among a lot of other things I learned too...
    Last edited: May 9, 2007
  2. Frankly, the first time I saw the Plaza, around 1975 or so, I was amazed. All the hype from the media I remembered from 1963 made it sound like Oswald had to be some sort of male Annie Oakley to make the shots he did. That is utter nonsense. Oswald was a Marine-trained rifleman, for God's sake; to miss a shot like that a Marine (or anyone else with a modicum of training) makes no sense. Take that into account, along with the other reasonable locations for an additional marksman, and it adds up to one thing: Oswald acted alone. Is it possible someone hired him to do the shooting? I thought so for many years, but after this long, that makes no sense either.
  3. Ursus

    Ursus New Member

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    I go along with both of you on this one. When you see "documenliaries" about the matter, they would make you to believe the shots were impossible for any being lesser than a Greek god! I'd been there (May ´95) , and let me tell you, I believe that even my 10 y/o daugther (She´s good with a .22 rifle) could have done it, not to speak of an ex-Marine!
  4. xxxxxxl

    xxxxxxl New Member

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    Pistolenschutze, Next time you are in Dallas let me know!
  5. 358 winchester

    358 winchester *TFF Admin Staff*

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    I think Oswald was the only shooter but I still think that there was more to it then just one crazy man with a gun. But I also think we should keep six months to a year of food in our homes at the minimum! so I am a little crazy too.
  6. Haligan

    Haligan Well-Known Member

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    The thing that makes me think that it was a conspiracy is not the shooting part, but all the crazy, hard to explain crap that happened after the shooting.
    The casket was different, the autopsy was a real screw up, the pictures don't match the story, the magic bullet, the police reports were screwed up, and what about the brain.
    I don't know it just seams like their was much more to it then one guy.
  7. 17thfabn

    17thfabn New Member

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    Haligan, much of the "crazy stuff" that happened can be explaned, or is made up or misreported by the conspiracy industry.

    For instance the casket that was used to transport President Kennedy's body from Dallas was slightly damaged during the trip so a new one was used for the funeral. Years latter the casket was destroyed so it wouldn't became part of some morbid display.

    http://www.jfklancer.com/LNE/coffin.html

    http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9400E1D91E30F930A35755C0A96F958260

    Many of the stories of the botched autopsy, were a result of people seeing incsions that had been made by Doctors at Parkland Hospital in their attempts to save President Kennedy's life.

    What screwed up police reports? The Dallas police captain and his homicide team did an excellent job quickly solving the murders of President Kennedy, and Police Officer J.D. Tippits. The big screw up by the Dallas Police was the lack of security at Police Headquarters. After Oswald was arrested police HQ was packed with reporters. Security was very poor. This allowed Jack Ruby to kill Oswald. The lack of security can be laid at the feet of the Dallas Police Chief who did not want to deny access to the media.

    The magic bullet is a fairy tale! People who push the "magic bullet" show Governor Connely sitting directly in front of, and on the same level as President Kennedy. In fact he was sitting at a lower level and slightly inboard of the presidnet. With this placement of the two men, no magic bullet was needed. The full metal jacket 6.5mm acted as it was designed to do and drilled through the president into the governor.

    In "Case Closed" by Gerald Posner and "Reclaiming History" by Vincent Bugliosi both authors do an excellent job of knocking down the major conspiracy theories.
  8. nightfighter

    nightfighter New Member

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    "...What screwed up police reports? The Dallas police captain and his homicide team did an excellent job quickly solving the murders of President Kennedy, and Police Officer J.D. Tippits. The big screw up by the Dallas Police was the lack of security at Police Headquarters. After Oswald was arrested police HQ was packed with reporters. Security was very poor. This allowed Jack Ruby to kill Oswald. The lack of security can be laid at the feet of the Dallas Police Chief who did not want to deny access to the media..."
    How do you explain that the police told the owner of the theater that "...that's the guy who killed the president...", when at the time, Oswald had not been linked to the JFK shooting; they were chasing him for shooting Officer Tippits?
  9. 17thfabn

    17thfabn New Member

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    Nightfighter, in the 1960's the Dallas Police Department had 6 officers killed in the line of duty. Three by gunfire, and three by MVA:

    http://odmp.org/agency/924-dallas-police-department-texas

    So an officer being shot to death in Dallas was a fairly rare occurance.

    Less than an hour after the murder of President Kennedy Dallas Police Officer J.D. Tippit is also shot to death. Your sitting in a patrol car in Dallas. How long would it take you to think that there is a good chance that the murders of the president, and your fellow officer may be linked? Do you think that just maybe emotions were running high, with the Dallas Police Department searching for the murderer of the president, and the murderer of a police officer. Would it be unusual for a police officer to blurt out something that is in the back of his mind?

    If you were a homicide detective in Dallas. You've just arrested a man for the murder of a police officer. He seems very weird/strange. And he just happens to work at the building that overlooks the spot where President Kennedy was killed. And a rifle was found in that building. Wouldn't that at least make him a suspect in the presidents assassination?

    The conspiricy folks would say that it is all just a set up. But regular detective work would say Oswald looks guilty as sin!
  10. nightfighter

    nightfighter New Member

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    The statement by the police officer was made at the theater, before Oswald was connected to his place of employment, the rifle...they did not even know his name when he was arrested. It seems like quite a reach to me.
    Furthermore, no one has ever determined who the person was who was putting a rifle into the trunk of a car behind the grassy knoll. A Dallas police officer who raced to the top of the knoll drew down on him, the man produced a badge and stated he was "secret service". The secret service stated that they had no agents in that area. This incident was not included for investigation in the Warren Report.
    I am not saying that there was a conspiracy, just that there are enough inconsistencies and unanswered questions to keep from making a decision that Oswald was the sole shooter.
    Furthermore, it is not logical to blame the whole thing on Oswald just because it was an easy shot from the window.
  11. Vladimir

    Vladimir New Member

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    I did a debate project on this last semester, one person in the class said my opponent won, everyone else voted me. I argued that Oswald did not act alone.

    I have no real theory, but there are toooooo many empty variables that cannot be explained. Yes many of them are just disinformation, many can be explained, but many cannot. I studied it a lot, I even played that super-controversial game where you had to re-create the shot (I never recreated the shot but like many have pointed out it wasn't exactly like trying to shoot around a corner).

    Sure he was an ex-Marine, but one of his squad-mates also said if he had to pick a single person in the world to shoot him, it would have been Oswald because he was such a horrible shot... though I don't think that means he didn't make the shot by any means. He probably was the only shooter, but still too many questions remain.

    What about Mrs. Kennedy's testimony about JFK's wounds, which was stricken from the record. The limo just disappeared after one of the secret service guys claimed there was a clear bullet hole through the windshield (impossible with current explanations of the bullet trajectories). Or the officers who showed up at Oswald's house, or the fact that (despite the official record) Oswald and Tippin had known each other before the shooting... or the fact that Tippin supposedly just rolled down his window and waved a suspected assassin over to the window... etc. etc.

    Oswald's like landlord testimony was used for a lot of the conclusions, but for example, her testimony that there was a police cruiser parked outside after the shooting with the number 011 was removed from the official story because Tippin's squad car's number was actually just 11.

    The research was a while ago so some of my details are rusty, but the events all stand. Maybe I will pull out my powerpoint and give it another look =P
  12. CampingJosh

    CampingJosh Well-Known Member

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    Occam's razor--you don't need a conspiracy to get the thing done, so why add one to the equation?
  13. nightfighter

    nightfighter New Member

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    Because there is so much evidence, eye witnesses, contradictory evidence, that suggest that there could very well have been one. more than one shooter = a conspiracy.

    If an intelligent entity were going to do an assassination, one of the things that should be apparent from past assassinations is that the perpetrator is almost always caught. Therefore, given that the perpetrators would desire to escape, it would be logical to provide a person that would be blamed and be a type of person that no one would question as having done the deed. "...I am just a patsy..."-Lee Harvey Oswald

    Again; I am not stating that there was a conspiracy, just that all the evidence has never been evaluated and there are many unanswered question that tend to suggest that there could have been.
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2008
  14. polishshooter

    polishshooter Active Member

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    NIghtfighter, have you been to Dealy Plaza?

    There is NO way a shot could have come from the "Grassy Knoll," Period. It's like 30 to 40 YDS maximum to the the target, with people in the way that did NOT reacty when the shots were fired, and NOBODY reported hearing any shots from that direction (look at the film, and all the testimony FROM THAT DAY, not from people who changed their story several times over the years)...while SEVERAL people IMMEDIATELY and correctly reacted to the shots that WERE fired by Oswald....also from films and testimony...

    Have you ever had someone "surprise" you while hunting by shooting 30 yds away? Much less IN your direction? You would know it, and you would jump. The film is the BEST evidence against another shooter.


    Plus I could have made the shots with my smoothbore '97 riot gun with slugs...possibly WITHOUT using the benchrest Oswald built for himself in the corner room....the closest shot is about 60 yds, the third and final shot was a little over 95 yds, DOWNHILL, which means it was the same physically as a CLOSER shot, so figure it was equivalent to about 40-70 yd shots, with a target moving at no more than 5 mph, directly AWAY from the shooter. Probably the EASIEST set up for any "moving target...."

    No matter what anybody says about second shooters, or whatever, Oswald had the BEST shooting position of any available, AND the "target" reacted EXACTLY as one would being shot from the rear.


    Sorry. Vlad, the fact most of your classmates voted for YOU had more to do with human nature, PREFERRING to believe in conspiracies and the supernatural, than the simple unvarnished truth...plus you were probably suave and debonair while your opponent was probably a dweeb..;):D:p

    Oswald did it. ALONE. End of story.

    And oh yeah, the limo did NOT disappear, but was used by other Presidents after the assassination. The pictures of all the damage to the limo are also on display at the museum. The second shot that missed bounced off the windshield cowling right in line where it made sense...
    Last edited: May 5, 2008
  15. nightfighter

    nightfighter New Member

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  16. polishshooter

    polishshooter Active Member

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    Nightfighter, no offfense, but just about everything you cited has been debunked. NOBODY saw a shooter near the Grassy Knoll, and NOBODY heard a shot from there. MUCH later, people changed their stories, but at the time of the shootings, nobody reported it.

    And the film does NOT show ANYONE reacting to the shots, except people directly BELOW the Book Depository, or even in the windows immediately below Oswald, and they are ALL pointing UP at him. It was in the confusion AFTER the shots when you see people running up the Grassy Knoll. And the the people on the overpass,,,they saw NOTHING and were in the best position to see and hear it if it had happened. bUt the kicker is the woman in the hat standing right in any line of fire from the Grassy Knoll at the time Oswald is shooting...she doesn't even MOVE or react at all. The shot would have been 20 yds BEHIND her...

    There was NO reports of "somebody with a rifle" EXCEPT in the Book Depository, at the time of the shooting, again, it was a legend that came later. People quoting other people quoting other people who changed their stories over time.

    The damage to Kennedy's head was ABSOLUTELY consistent with a high velocity bullet entering from the BACK, and TOTALLY inconsitent with a bullet entering from the FRONT. There is a wonderful book written by a forensic doctor that also was a gun nut that examined ALL the medical evidence in both the Lincoln and Kennedy assasinations, and duplicated all the findings with the actual types of guns used on cadavers, and also dummies made up to duplicate the consistency of human skulls and body tissue.

    The part of Kennedy's skull that was blown off was NOT in back, but to the forward quadrant immediately to the right of his eye socket, the weakest part of the skull.

    And his head moved BACKWARDS after the head shot (actually back and slightly to the side" JUST like it should have, when the hydraulic pressure built up to a point it was no longer contained by the scalp, and it reacted to the hydraulic jet caused when the pressure was relieved through the skull separating where it did.

    (I apologize for the graphic detail, but really EVERYTHING has been explained in great detail, and is only NOT accepted by those people who are simply "Conspiracy Nuts," God love 'em.)

    You can duplicate the test with a watermelon, wrapped in enough duct tape to simulate the scalp, put it on a stool, and shoot it with ANY high powered rifle with a FMJ bullet from 60 yds or so... 10 out of 10 times the melon will fall off TOWARDS the shooter....that is the one thing cited the most by conspiracy nuts that is the EASIEST to disprove, that 'Kennedy's head could only have moved that way from a shot to the FRONT." Wrong. It would have moved the OPPOSITE way.


    You really have to get to Dealy Plaza, Nightfighter, it WILL change your mind.

    There really ISN'T "so much evidence, eye witnesses, contradictory evidence, that suggest that there could very well have been one. more than one shooter = a conspiracy."

    While ANY investigation has "loose ends," but the Kennedy Assassination actually has LESS "loose ends" than most. The second Government inquiry years later was a farce, admitting witness testimony that CONTRADICTED earlier testimony FROM THE SAME PEOPLE (for money? Fame?) plus the faulty "sound tests" that did not duplicate the actual event, which fueled the "Conspiracy Industry" to simply sell books and movies to the gullible.

    With all due respect, get over it, Oswald acted ALONE. And it has been PROVEN.
    Last edited: May 6, 2008
  17. 17thfabn

    17thfabn New Member

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    Vladimir congratulations on your debate victory! But the conspiricy side has it easy. They can continualy bring up new theories with little or no evidence and over whelm the other side.

    But the vast majority of the different conspiricy theories under pinnings can be knocked down by facts.

    When opposing the conspiricy theory crowd it is like playing "wack a mole". You wack down one, they come up with another.
  18. polishshooter

    polishshooter Active Member

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    Yeah, Vlad, and 17th, I learned that a long time ago in college, in a "Public Speaking-Pre-law" class our supposedly "Final" grade was to pick a notorious criminal in History, and either "Prosecute" or 'Defend." Each Day over tha last three weeks was devoted to "your" trial, with the rest of the class as jury, and the Prof as judge.

    Everybody picked individuals, like Lizzie Borden, Al Capone, Charles manson, whatever, I picked defending the Ohio National Guard over the "Kent State Massacre."

    And we ALL nailed our cases, IRON CLAD, EVERY one of us got unanimous verdicts in our favor...until we noticed we had a week left in class...:cool:

    The professor then said, "Oh yeah, I forgot to tell you, now you have to do it AGAIN, only this time same case, if you PROSECUTED you now DEFEND, or vice-versa....":eek:

    You should have HEARD the groans, we had ALL covered all the bases, we THOUGHT...

    I even had to change the premise on mine since I had done such a "good job" securing their exoneration, to "Get the Conviction", I actually prosecuted the Commanding General of the ONG for "failing to provide adequate Riot Control Training to inadequately trained troops only trained in Basic Combat Techniques,'and "for issueng live ammo" or some such nonsense, I was lucky he allowed it.

    BUT it opened my eyes to arguments, you have to study not only YOURS but you have to listen to THEIRS. (and sometimes no matter where your "heart" is, THEIRS are the better arguments....)


    (And I also learned the fickleness of juries, a WEAK argument delivered eloquently by a popular person will many times WIN over the STRONG argument weakly delivered by someone nobody likes....:p ....God knows I SOMETIMES fall into that last category when I argue, so I beat my head against walls once in a while too;):p:D)
  19. nightfighter

    nightfighter New Member

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    So you say, but you do not provide any links or footnotes, so all I have to go on is your opinion. An that of the Airman, who in an interview told of how the shot made his ears ring, a man with a badge confinscated his film.
    This assumes that the if a gun were fired from the grassy knoll it was one that would produce enough muzzle blast that people near by would be uncomfortable. There are guns (.22 Hornet, et.al.) that produce little muzzle blast and report.

    On the day of the assassination, I remember news reporters talking about how several people pointed to the top of the grassy knoll to indicate to a motorcycle policeman where the shots had come from.
    This is all well and good, but the I saw an interview with the doctor who was trying to treat Kennedy, who insisted that the back of his skull was blown off...not the front. He was a witness to what he observed (has never changed his story), and is not a "Consipiracy Nut".
    If you accept the Walter Reed autopsy, this would be relevant, however, again, I watched an interview with one of the Walter Reed doctors who stated that unidentified persons in plain cloths were "clearly in charge" of the autopsy, and stopped the doctors several times from completing the customary procedures. Thus, even the doctors at Walter Reed were not satisfied with the autopsy results.
    If I went to Ford Theater, would my mind be changed about the Lincoln assassination? Booth obviously acted alone because it was an easy jump from Lincolns box to the stage? In fact was that assassination not a conspiracy?

    There is enough that none of my questions that I have about the incident.
    Now I have your assurance unsupported by any evidence (just your opionion). In all due respect, I just want the questions answered, hopefuly by the principals involved before they are all dead (which may of course be too late).
  20. Space aliens, hired by the CIA, killed Kennedy, doesn't everyone know that? The Carcano rifle bullets were merely window dressing planted by the Dallas police and Lyndon Johnson. :D;):p

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