Did Daley Plaza change your mind?

Discussion in 'General Military Arms & History Forum' started by polishshooter, May 9, 2007.

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Have you toured Dealey Plaza, and do you believe there was a JFK "Conspiracy?"

  1. I HAVE been to Dealey Plaza, the Depository and the Grassy Knoll and think Oswald acted alone.

    7 vote(s)
    25.9%
  2. I HAVE been to Dealey Plaza, seen it all, and STILL believe there was a conspiracy.

    2 vote(s)
    7.4%
  3. I have NOT been to Dealey Plaza, but think Oswald acted alone.

    7 vote(s)
    25.9%
  4. i have NOT been to Dealey Plaza, and still believe there was a conspiracy.

    11 vote(s)
    40.7%
  1. polishshooter

    polishshooter Active Member

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    My visit last week to Dealey Plaza absolutely convinced me Oswald acted alone, even though I resisited the notion since 1963...until then I just KNEW there had to have been a conspiracy to kill JFK.


    Let's see if it affected you the same way, and at the same time see how many of those who still believe in a "conspiracy" whether or not they have toured the Book Depository and the Grassy Knoll in person....

    I think this might be enlightening.

    I for example ALWAYS thought it was too tough a shot for a wack job with a crappy rifle like the Carcano, but never really realized how CLOSE the shots were....only one among a lot of other things I learned too...
    Last edited: May 9, 2007
  2. Frankly, the first time I saw the Plaza, around 1975 or so, I was amazed. All the hype from the media I remembered from 1963 made it sound like Oswald had to be some sort of male Annie Oakley to make the shots he did. That is utter nonsense. Oswald was a Marine-trained rifleman, for God's sake; to miss a shot like that a Marine (or anyone else with a modicum of training) makes no sense. Take that into account, along with the other reasonable locations for an additional marksman, and it adds up to one thing: Oswald acted alone. Is it possible someone hired him to do the shooting? I thought so for many years, but after this long, that makes no sense either.
  3. Ursus

    Ursus Active Member

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    I go along with both of you on this one. When you see "documenliaries" about the matter, they would make you to believe the shots were impossible for any being lesser than a Greek god! I'd been there (May ´95) , and let me tell you, I believe that even my 10 y/o daugther (She´s good with a .22 rifle) could have done it, not to speak of an ex-Marine!
  4. xxxxxxl

    xxxxxxl New Member

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    Pistolenschutze, Next time you are in Dallas let me know!
  5. 358 winchester

    358 winchester *TFF Admin Staff*

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    I think Oswald was the only shooter but I still think that there was more to it then just one crazy man with a gun. But I also think we should keep six months to a year of food in our homes at the minimum! so I am a little crazy too.
  6. Haligan

    Haligan Well-Known Member

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    The thing that makes me think that it was a conspiracy is not the shooting part, but all the crazy, hard to explain crap that happened after the shooting.
    The casket was different, the autopsy was a real screw up, the pictures don't match the story, the magic bullet, the police reports were screwed up, and what about the brain.
    I don't know it just seams like their was much more to it then one guy.
  7. 17thfabn

    17thfabn New Member

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    Haligan, much of the "crazy stuff" that happened can be explaned, or is made up or misreported by the conspiracy industry.

    For instance the casket that was used to transport President Kennedy's body from Dallas was slightly damaged during the trip so a new one was used for the funeral. Years latter the casket was destroyed so it wouldn't became part of some morbid display.

    http://www.jfklancer.com/LNE/coffin.html

    http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9400E1D91E30F930A35755C0A96F958260

    Many of the stories of the botched autopsy, were a result of people seeing incsions that had been made by Doctors at Parkland Hospital in their attempts to save President Kennedy's life.

    What screwed up police reports? The Dallas police captain and his homicide team did an excellent job quickly solving the murders of President Kennedy, and Police Officer J.D. Tippits. The big screw up by the Dallas Police was the lack of security at Police Headquarters. After Oswald was arrested police HQ was packed with reporters. Security was very poor. This allowed Jack Ruby to kill Oswald. The lack of security can be laid at the feet of the Dallas Police Chief who did not want to deny access to the media.

    The magic bullet is a fairy tale! People who push the "magic bullet" show Governor Connely sitting directly in front of, and on the same level as President Kennedy. In fact he was sitting at a lower level and slightly inboard of the presidnet. With this placement of the two men, no magic bullet was needed. The full metal jacket 6.5mm acted as it was designed to do and drilled through the president into the governor.

    In "Case Closed" by Gerald Posner and "Reclaiming History" by Vincent Bugliosi both authors do an excellent job of knocking down the major conspiracy theories.
  8. nightfighter

    nightfighter New Member

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    "...What screwed up police reports? The Dallas police captain and his homicide team did an excellent job quickly solving the murders of President Kennedy, and Police Officer J.D. Tippits. The big screw up by the Dallas Police was the lack of security at Police Headquarters. After Oswald was arrested police HQ was packed with reporters. Security was very poor. This allowed Jack Ruby to kill Oswald. The lack of security can be laid at the feet of the Dallas Police Chief who did not want to deny access to the media..."
    How do you explain that the police told the owner of the theater that "...that's the guy who killed the president...", when at the time, Oswald had not been linked to the JFK shooting; they were chasing him for shooting Officer Tippits?
  9. 17thfabn

    17thfabn New Member

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    Nightfighter, in the 1960's the Dallas Police Department had 6 officers killed in the line of duty. Three by gunfire, and three by MVA:

    http://odmp.org/agency/924-dallas-police-department-texas

    So an officer being shot to death in Dallas was a fairly rare occurance.

    Less than an hour after the murder of President Kennedy Dallas Police Officer J.D. Tippit is also shot to death. Your sitting in a patrol car in Dallas. How long would it take you to think that there is a good chance that the murders of the president, and your fellow officer may be linked? Do you think that just maybe emotions were running high, with the Dallas Police Department searching for the murderer of the president, and the murderer of a police officer. Would it be unusual for a police officer to blurt out something that is in the back of his mind?

    If you were a homicide detective in Dallas. You've just arrested a man for the murder of a police officer. He seems very weird/strange. And he just happens to work at the building that overlooks the spot where President Kennedy was killed. And a rifle was found in that building. Wouldn't that at least make him a suspect in the presidents assassination?

    The conspiricy folks would say that it is all just a set up. But regular detective work would say Oswald looks guilty as sin!
  10. nightfighter

    nightfighter New Member

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    The statement by the police officer was made at the theater, before Oswald was connected to his place of employment, the rifle...they did not even know his name when he was arrested. It seems like quite a reach to me.
    Furthermore, no one has ever determined who the person was who was putting a rifle into the trunk of a car behind the grassy knoll. A Dallas police officer who raced to the top of the knoll drew down on him, the man produced a badge and stated he was "secret service". The secret service stated that they had no agents in that area. This incident was not included for investigation in the Warren Report.
    I am not saying that there was a conspiracy, just that there are enough inconsistencies and unanswered questions to keep from making a decision that Oswald was the sole shooter.
    Furthermore, it is not logical to blame the whole thing on Oswald just because it was an easy shot from the window.
  11. Vladimir

    Vladimir New Member

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    I did a debate project on this last semester, one person in the class said my opponent won, everyone else voted me. I argued that Oswald did not act alone.

    I have no real theory, but there are toooooo many empty variables that cannot be explained. Yes many of them are just disinformation, many can be explained, but many cannot. I studied it a lot, I even played that super-controversial game where you had to re-create the shot (I never recreated the shot but like many have pointed out it wasn't exactly like trying to shoot around a corner).

    Sure he was an ex-Marine, but one of his squad-mates also said if he had to pick a single person in the world to shoot him, it would have been Oswald because he was such a horrible shot... though I don't think that means he didn't make the shot by any means. He probably was the only shooter, but still too many questions remain.

    What about Mrs. Kennedy's testimony about JFK's wounds, which was stricken from the record. The limo just disappeared after one of the secret service guys claimed there was a clear bullet hole through the windshield (impossible with current explanations of the bullet trajectories). Or the officers who showed up at Oswald's house, or the fact that (despite the official record) Oswald and Tippin had known each other before the shooting... or the fact that Tippin supposedly just rolled down his window and waved a suspected assassin over to the window... etc. etc.

    Oswald's like landlord testimony was used for a lot of the conclusions, but for example, her testimony that there was a police cruiser parked outside after the shooting with the number 011 was removed from the official story because Tippin's squad car's number was actually just 11.

    The research was a while ago so some of my details are rusty, but the events all stand. Maybe I will pull out my powerpoint and give it another look =P
  12. CampingJosh

    CampingJosh Well-Known Member

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    Occam's razor--you don't need a conspiracy to get the thing done, so why add one to the equation?
  13. nightfighter

    nightfighter New Member

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    Because there is so much evidence, eye witnesses, contradictory evidence, that suggest that there could very well have been one. more than one shooter = a conspiracy.

    If an intelligent entity were going to do an assassination, one of the things that should be apparent from past assassinations is that the perpetrator is almost always caught. Therefore, given that the perpetrators would desire to escape, it would be logical to provide a person that would be blamed and be a type of person that no one would question as having done the deed. "...I am just a patsy..."-Lee Harvey Oswald

    Again; I am not stating that there was a conspiracy, just that all the evidence has never been evaluated and there are many unanswered question that tend to suggest that there could have been.
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2008
  14. polishshooter

    polishshooter Active Member

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    NIghtfighter, have you been to Dealy Plaza?

    There is NO way a shot could have come from the "Grassy Knoll," Period. It's like 30 to 40 YDS maximum to the the target, with people in the way that did NOT reacty when the shots were fired, and NOBODY reported hearing any shots from that direction (look at the film, and all the testimony FROM THAT DAY, not from people who changed their story several times over the years)...while SEVERAL people IMMEDIATELY and correctly reacted to the shots that WERE fired by Oswald....also from films and testimony...

    Have you ever had someone "surprise" you while hunting by shooting 30 yds away? Much less IN your direction? You would know it, and you would jump. The film is the BEST evidence against another shooter.


    Plus I could have made the shots with my smoothbore '97 riot gun with slugs...possibly WITHOUT using the benchrest Oswald built for himself in the corner room....the closest shot is about 60 yds, the third and final shot was a little over 95 yds, DOWNHILL, which means it was the same physically as a CLOSER shot, so figure it was equivalent to about 40-70 yd shots, with a target moving at no more than 5 mph, directly AWAY from the shooter. Probably the EASIEST set up for any "moving target...."

    No matter what anybody says about second shooters, or whatever, Oswald had the BEST shooting position of any available, AND the "target" reacted EXACTLY as one would being shot from the rear.


    Sorry. Vlad, the fact most of your classmates voted for YOU had more to do with human nature, PREFERRING to believe in conspiracies and the supernatural, than the simple unvarnished truth...plus you were probably suave and debonair while your opponent was probably a dweeb..;):D:p

    Oswald did it. ALONE. End of story.

    And oh yeah, the limo did NOT disappear, but was used by other Presidents after the assassination. The pictures of all the damage to the limo are also on display at the museum. The second shot that missed bounced off the windshield cowling right in line where it made sense...
    Last edited: May 5, 2008
  15. nightfighter

    nightfighter New Member

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