Did Daley Plaza change your mind?

Discussion in 'General Military Arms & History Forum' started by polishshooter, May 9, 2007.

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Have you toured Dealey Plaza, and do you believe there was a JFK "Conspiracy?"

  1. I HAVE been to Dealey Plaza, the Depository and the Grassy Knoll and think Oswald acted alone.

    7 vote(s)
    25.9%
  2. I HAVE been to Dealey Plaza, seen it all, and STILL believe there was a conspiracy.

    2 vote(s)
    7.4%
  3. I have NOT been to Dealey Plaza, but think Oswald acted alone.

    7 vote(s)
    25.9%
  4. i have NOT been to Dealey Plaza, and still believe there was a conspiracy.

    11 vote(s)
    40.7%
  1. nightfighter

    nightfighter New Member

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    There are two likely scenarios. The first, Oswald acted alone. The second, it was some kind of conspiracy. I have too many questions that have never been answered to make a definitive conclusion as to which.

    For instance, a Carcano bullet was found laying on a stretcher that transported the Governor to the hospital. In all your shooting experience (anyone?) have you ever found a bullet that went through a deer, boar, moose, anything, laying on the ground? The rarity of that happening should at the very least suggest that it is just possible that someone placed it there.

    Another question: Why was Oswald holding a newspaper when he was photographed(the one where he stated that it was his head superimposed upon someone else)? Why would anyone hold up a newspaper? For what possible purpose? In folklore, it is used to establish a date...however, in that case the newspaper was folded and the headline could not be read.

    Why did Ruby keep insisting that he could not talk in the Dallas police environment and begged to be taken to D.C. where he would be safe?

    Why did telephone records indicate that Ruby's calls to the Mafia in Chicago increased by several hundred percent just before the assassination?

    Who were the three well dressed and atypical (clean shaven young adults, 30ish) hobos found in the railroad car just after the assassination?

    If a person cannot come up with many questions about the strange things that happened in relation to the assassination, they do not have an inquiring nature.

    I am not saying a conspiracy did exist, but without the many questions being answered I sure cannot state without reservation that it did not. Unless of course, it was space aliens as you say. I thought that this was a serious discussion.
  2. nightfighter

    nightfighter New Member

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    John Wilkes Booth in a conspiracy with several other people killed Abraham Lincoln, and conspired to kill Sec. of War Stanton at the same time.

    Among those several persons tried and convicted and hanged was Mary Serrat. Sentenced to life in prison was a Doctor Mudd, who set Booth's broken leg (and later became a hero for his attempts to save the prisoners and the garrison of prison from yellow fever).

    Sometimes there is a lone assassin, sometimes there is a conspiracy. Absolutes is the realm of the foolish.
  3. polishshooter

    polishshooter Active Member

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    NIghtfighter, I don't need to footnote any of my facts, they are THE facts, if you care to look them up. I HAVE, and I don't need to prove anything to ANYONE. People have already DONE that for me, all I had to do was listen with my head and not my heart. And I don't mean that to be as mean as it sounds, REALLY I enjoy your passion, but it is better spent elsewhere. Oswald did it, alone. Open your mind and read more than the accounts of people that AGREE with you. Many of your sources quote each OTHER if you look closely.

    I TOO argued for years there HAD to be a conspiracy, and I TOO quoted a lot of half truths and stuff I WANTED to believe was true...UNTIL I went to Dealey Plaza, and the light bulbs went off, seeing the entire set up. I used to picture it in my mind, from the footage...it's MUCH "cozier" then that. I WALKED the grassy knoll, I LOOKED at the Xs in the street! I even bought some "rags" from conspiracy nuts on the street! It was standing in the winow NEXT to the one Oswald shot from, looking down at the "X" in the street, where the warm feeling of relief, and KNOWLEDGE, washed over me for the first time! THEN I started to (re?)read the truth...as well as SEE it for the first time. I'm BEGGING you, go, and then we'll resume the conversation....


    It is so EASY to believe the crap, to believe the conspiracy nuts, HOW could the Leader of the FREE WORLD be killed so easily by a nut with a crappy $19.95 ITALIAN rifle (OK, $24.95 W/scope) My GOD man, Oswald got the job WEEKS before Kennedy even THOUGHT he was going to Dallas, much less anyone else. GREAT conspiracy! Plant your "patsy" BEFORE you know where the target is going to be!

    Think MAN! HOW do you get two or more rifles to go off EXACTLY at the same time, so only THREE shots are heard, HOW do you make sure ONLY three bullets are recovered? When it is PROVED Oswald fired THREE TIMES???

    COMMON SENSE leads you to the truth when you are there, the FACTS merely CONFIRM it.

    EVERY one of your arguments is bogus, or a myth, or have been refuted. Period.

    The bullet? EXPLAINED. IN DETAIL,you just have to LISTEN.

    It passed through Kennedy's neck, touched his spine, throat, esophagus, then through Connally's back, ribs, thorax, exited under his diaphram, entered his arm, deflected off bone, and came to rest just piercing his other arm. Where it fell out on the gurney in the rush by people NOT already engaged in trying to save Kennedy to get him into surgery after transferring him from the gurney.. ABSOLUTELY consistent with his wounds and ballistics of the round and what it went through, and absolutely believable to any ballistics expert for a mid-power at best 6.5 mm Carcano FMJ. AND contrary to other myths, it was NOT "pristine," there are pictures of it everywhere you'd care to look, both under microscopes and naked, bearing the scars, scrapes and even the slightly bent nose you can see with the naked eye, that you would expect for it's construction, it's velocity at that range, from a carbine length barrel, and what it did. AND it was duplicated in tests MANY times since!

    WHY won't you BELIEVE it??? THAT is where you need some introspection...


    And Lincoln, YES it WAS a conspiracy...that unraveled in WEEKS if not DAYS!
    NOT still a "mystery" (to some!) for 65 YEARS!!!!

    I've read a lot about that one too....:cool:
  4. All kidding aside (I really WAS kidding in the above post guys! :eek::D), there will always be conspiracy theories after any assassination of a public figure; it's the nature of the beast. Such theories invariably develop mostly because all facts can never be known, and remote possibilities will always be imaginable, even when the evidence points overpoweringly to the accepted explanation. Conclusions about assassinations are, by their very nature, inductive conclusions, never deductive ones, i.e., they are conclusions based on logical probabilities, not logical certainties. Even if Oswald had stood in the middle of Daley Plaza with his Carcano, in front of a 1,000 onlookers, all with cameras rolling, and managed to put three 6.5mm holes through Kennedy's forehead in broad daylight, there would still be those who said it was a conspiracy and that Kennedy was "really" shot from the "grassy knoll," a street sewer drain, the Book Depository, or possibly the Moon. ;) Logically, only Occam's Razor is reasonable to apply here:

    "The explanation of any phenomenon should make as few assumptions as possible, eliminating those that make no difference in the observable predictions of the explanatory hypothesis or theory. The principle is often expressed in Latin as the lex parsimoniae ("law of parsimony" or "law of succinctness"): "entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem", or 'entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity'".
  5. nightfighter

    nightfighter New Member

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    Polishshooter, I am confused by the emotion in response to my pointing out the inconsistancies of the Kennedy assisionation. Surely when you posted your original post, you must have expected that there would be responses such as mine that would disagree with your conclusion. If I remember correctly, you asked for peoples responses. Did you just want responses that agreed?
    I do not understand the emotion of your last couple of posts...I never intended to anger anyone.:confused:
  6. 17thfabn

    17thfabn New Member

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    Nightfighter, you have to remember that Polish is the passionate intelectual type!:):) And you may have caught him on an evening when he was at the Polish Vodka!:eek:

    I can understand the passion on both sides.

    On the pro conspiricy side it is hard to believe that a low life looser like Oswald could pull off the "Murder of the Century". (forgeting about the Archduke Ferdinand)

    On the anti conspiricy side it is aggravating to have all these crazy ideas to knock down. There are so many it boggles the mind. Most were concoted well after the events.

    People want the whole thing tied up in nice box. But in any investigation there are loose ends. Years latter people's memories fade.

    History channel, and the Discovery Channel have both had excellent documentries on the murder:

    1. I remember one thing they brought up was the claim that Oswald couldn't have walked the distance (it may have been the distance from his boarding house to the bus stop) he was claimed to have. They timed a man wlaking the route, and walking at a fast but reasoanble pace he was able to do it.

    2. They also had one of the pictures showing a supposed additional gun man. The picture was very fuzzy. To me it could have been the lock ness monster, or big foot, the picture was so bad. They used the same type of camera, with the same type of film and took a picture of the same location at the same time of day same weather conditions. On their film you could see what might have been the grainy out line of a man holding something. At the time they took the picture there was no one there!
  7. nightfighter

    nightfighter New Member

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    I have no particular theory to promote. I just do not like unanswered questions and loose ends.

    For instance Oswald had his picture taken with his Carcano and a newspaper. (Although he stated that it was his face superimposed on someone else, his wife stated that she remembered taking the picture.) I drew the logical inference that it might have been an attempt to document something. But if he wanted to be famous or infamous, why did he deny shooting Kennedy? This was his chance for immortality. Why did he not seize it? Leaving his rifle behind would surely have resulted in his eventual capture...did he think he could have gotten away with it?

    Oswald also stated that it would be pointless to kill the president because he would be replaced with someone who would likely maintain the same political policies. If not immortality, what did he wish to gain?

    With the Secret Service in attendance and overseeing the Walter Reed autopsy, how did the brain disappear?
  8. 17thfabn

    17thfabn New Member

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    Nightfighter tying up some loose ends.

    When trying to understand Oswald you have to understand that he was:

    1.Not a particularly bright individual, with illusions of grandeur. He had attempted to kill retired Army General Walker, a right wing leader 7 months earlier. He was frustrated by his low wage job at the book depository. Killing President Kennedy certainly made him famous.

    2. Goofy. He went in the U.S. Marines, and yet went around spouting all kinds of marxist theory. He "defected" to Russia, attempted to commit suicide when they wouldn't let him stay. Because of this the Soviets alowed him to stay. Then a few years latter he decided to come back to the U.S. After being back in the U.S. he talked to his wife of returning to the U.S.S.R. Most of the men who served with him described him as "weired", or '"strange".

    On Oswald's claim of innocence, he may have not wanted to suffer the consequences of his actions. If found guilty of the murders of President Kennedy and Dallas Police Officer Tippit he would have been exicuted.

    The brain? I don't know what happened to it.
  9. nightfighter

    nightfighter New Member

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    1)
    It is often stated that he was the one who shot at General Walker, but he had never been charged with that and that did not come to light until after the Kennedy assassination.
    When I watched interviews with Oswald he did not strike me as being a dullard. He seemed not only bright but articulate. He managed to teach himself Russian so well that when he met his future Russian wife, he spoke so perfectly that she stated she thought he was a Russian. That in itself is quite a trick in that almost all people with have a heavy accent when they speak a "learned" second language.
    "...spouting all kinds of Marxist theory..."
    I saw an interview with him in New Orleans after the "fair play for Cuba" incident. He was well read in the area in that he knew the difference between Marxism, Socialism, Communism, etc. He had obviously read the books and could differentiate among the theories. Very few people can actually do that, they just call all those: "communism."

    2) However, on this point I agree. His behavior was very strange when he was a marine. In one incident, a small handgun (which he was not allowed to have in the barracks),he had hidden in his locker fell out and discharged. It is documented that other marines picked on him because of his strangeness and interest in reading a Russian newspaper...they called him "comrade Oswald."

    He was quite the enigma.
  10. TeeHee65

    TeeHee65 New Member

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    Sorry folks, but I guess I have to agree with just about everyone who has posted on this one - to some degree at least. Below is part of a reply I made to another thread just an hour or so ago.....


    Very interesting that I should join this forum and then "trip over" this thread an hour or so later. I was a 16 year old high school Junior in November of 1963. The Kennedy assination & Lee Harvey Oswald were THE big deal for our generation, and I guess I was one of the many who didn't buy the official story. It just seemed too easy to be believable.

    In 1967 I bought an Italian 6.5 Mannlicher Carcano rifle at a pawn shop for the outrageous price of $10 - including a box of ammo. At that time I was a "self proclaimed" expert marksman and I proved (to myself) that nobody could have done what Oswald was supposed to have done. IT JUST COULDN'T BE DONE! Now, some 43 years later, I guess I'll admit that maybe I wasn't quite as good as I thought I was. I still can't make myself buy into the official version of the assination 100%.
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2010

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