Did Some P22 Homework Finally!

Discussion in '.22-Rimfire Forum' started by Mr_Shamrock, Jul 29, 2012.

  1. Mr_Shamrock

    Mr_Shamrock New Member

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    As I said in my other thread I was having some issues with my P22 failing to feed and finally got that resolved with a new mag that Walther sent me. So the wifey & I put 600 rounds through it at the range yesterday with just a single stovepipe which got me back excited about this little gun. I am sure most of you have already done your own research and probably have a copy of the P22 bible. I just discovered it and downloaded it last night and was up till 2:00 doing some polishing. Man is this thing like butter now. One big complaint I still have is the extractor sends the spent casing all over the place - many right at my forehead. I have a mark from yesterday where a casing lodged itself between the side of my head and my shooting glasses. I even found one in my pocket when I got home. Upon further research Volquartsen sells an extractor that is supposed to cure that. I have one coming from Midway USA (along with some 10/22 goodies). So last night I polished the feed ramp, rounded the edge on the hammer, and polished up a few other things listed in the P22 bible. It is way smoother now. The biggest issue I could see was the edge on the hammer. I could see the spacing between the frame and the slide increase quite a bit as it passed over where the breech block and safety come together. Again I am sure 99% of you are saying "where you been under a rock?" I just never took the time to do the research and fine tune this thing. It's like I have a new gun!!!!

    Here are some bad pics (my camera sucks)...

    The feed ramp and trigger assembly "ears" polished...

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    And the hammer - it looks weird in the picture but actually is polished very uniformly. The lighting in my office was playing tricks on me...

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    Last edited: Jul 29, 2012
  2. Helix_FR

    Helix_FR New Member

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    If you knock the edge of the hammer off completley the gun feeds way better. The sporattic ejection pattern is from the position of the extrator relitive to the ejector. Many people have tried to control it but there is always still that one or two cases that bump off your forehead.
  3. Mr_Shamrock

    Mr_Shamrock New Member

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    Here is a little better pic. I just can't get one to look right, but yeah I rounded the entire edge. I wasn't going for a shiny polished look on the entire hammer just taking the sharp point off that edge. I read some warnings about taking too much off and the gun not cocking via the slide anymore so it was a sand-test, sand-test, sand-test, etc. procedure. If the Volquartsen extractor helps with half of them it will be worth the money.

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  4. 1917-1911M

    1917-1911M New Member

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    Nah, it's easy to control. Here is a some of the history if you are interested. I correspond with the chief engineer of Walther small arms on a few things when they don't get em right like the original extractor in the P22. :) M1911

    Close-up photos of an original Walther extractor as compared to the new one. The difference is very obvious. I'm also throwing in a little history on the mods which led to Walther's redesign. M1911

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    The original Walther P22 extractor. Notice the square cut and the size of the gap as measured from the face of the breech block to the extractor face.

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    The "gap" that existed with the original extractor and the reason for poor ejection direction. I know the extractor spring is not installed in this photo but it makes no difference regarding the point that is illustrated.

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    The "new" extractor offered by Walther. The only redesign and the newest extractor offered by Walther for the P22. Notice the additional length of the tip and the undercut which allows the gap between the breech face and tip to be reduced. This concept came from some of the extractor mods I made to correct ejection direction. Walther cannot duplicate my efforts exactly as that would involve custom fitting for specific types of ammunition. They sell a pistol for world wide use but they have made a huge improvement with the new extractor.

    Remember, the extractor "does not" extract a spent casing when firing. The blow back gasses do that job. The extractor is necessary for removing unfired rounds when unloading the firearm, etc. The extractor also should play a very important part in ejection direction. What happens is the spent case, flying rearward very fast due to burned powder pressure is blown from the chamber, hits the ejector on the left edge of the cartridge rim. This causes the case to bounce forward and to the right and in the process be ejected from the firearm. With a properly designed extractor the rim on the cartridges right side is held captive by the extractor causing the ejector to "pivot" the case over the extractor's tip. A large gap here keeps the extractor from being able to perform this critical role.

    What my shooting has shown is the that the large gap of the original P22 extractor allowed the cartridge to float around and bounce off the ejector in any direction causing poor ejection authority and direction. If the extractor to breech face gap is reduced by peening the tip rearward, or making your own tighter tolerance extractor or installing the new Walther extractor with the reduced gap, then the extractor actually begins to play its part in causing the rim to catch on the tip and the case to "have" to pivot over the extractor tip when bouncing off the ejector. The result, consistent ejection direction and with more authority.

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    The new Walther extractor with a round sitting on the breech face. Notice the reduction in the "gap". Walther of course understood what I was doing here and finally got with the program. S&W was furnished the new style extractors and a number of folks requested and received them.

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    Above is a contraption I made where I filled the existing pivot hole in the extractor and drilled another more toward the front. This closed the gap, was ugly but worked great. Compare this prototype to the VQ model shown below. :D



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    Many years ago and in a distant galaxy I figured out what the problem was and posted this picture of how to peen the tip to reduce the gap thus cure ejection direction. Note: The red portion is the part of the original tip that has been peened rearward to reduce the gap. In the process it has also become very sharp. This is good. Notice also that the tip hasn't been peened, rounding it inward, but remains in a proper shape for grasping the rim of a round. NOTE: The peening mod was for the original extractor only. You cannot peen the new one. There is no supporting metal under the tip and it will break off. The new model was designed to reduce the gap.

    [​IMG]

    How to peen threads were posted along with before and after photos.

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    A step by step thread was posted on how to file your own perfectly fitted extractor from the barrel wrench.

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    The fit was so good that a round would actually be held against the breech face. Ejection direction was perfect. Then: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    1 DogFish said, "heck there is nothing to this" and milled some absolute beauties, for free. I got two, pictured flanking an original above, and they are both in operation today. He left just enough material on the face for each owner to easily file for the right tolerance in their pistol. Oh man these were perfect. I couldn't have expected Walther to have done any better. And that is a short summary of the history of correcting ejection direction with properly fitted extractors. Walther can't install an extractor with the tight tolerances of the custom ones above because the P22 is sold world wide and must fit all ammo rim thickness. This should provide you with enough history to illustrate the problem, the solution. M1911

    Pictured below is the new VQ extractor. Nick at VQ sent me one for sending them the idea. Works pretty good too.

    [​IMG]

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    Just doesn't quite close the gap though. If it did it would function like the 1Dogfish model and ejection would be even better.
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2012
  5. jack404

    jack404 Former Guest

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    1917-1911M

    dang you gonna kill my P22 parts business!!

    great post eh cheers
  6. 1917-1911M

    1917-1911M New Member

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    Just happened to have taken my breech block out of the slide today after about 15, 000 rounds. Someone wanted measurements of the firing pin. It needed a good cleaning anyway. Below is the cleaned up VQ extractor after about 15K rounds. Looks like it is holding up fine. M1911

    [​IMG]

    Was pretty dirty.

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    Cleaned up nicely though.
  7. jack404

    jack404 Former Guest

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    I nominate we grab 1917-1911M posts and make em a sticky ..
  8. 1917-1911M

    1917-1911M New Member

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    Cheers Jack, you guys must be in the middle of winter there. Been a long time since I was down your way....r&r back in '70 to be exact. Beautiful country. Old crowd is still up to the same antics, they must be gettin old though, talk more about food and cookin and than shootin these days. :p Take care. M1911
  9. Mr_Shamrock

    Mr_Shamrock New Member

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    Yeah that should definitely be a sticky - a wealth of knowledge for sure. I received my new allen head screws today (one of the phillips rounded) so I will get to finally test the VQ extractor and will report how it does for me. Thanks for all the info!
  10. aa1911

    aa1911 Active Member

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    looks like my barrel wrench will get some cutting and filing... very nice, thank you!

    I polished mine with JB bore paste and took a dremel to the hammer; got a little over zealous with the hammer and ground too much off, oops!

    now it skips and goes to half cock on occasion, dang. Tried to order a new hammer years ago but could not get an answer from S&W or walther. should really look at replacing it finally. Good to know 'bout that extractor. Mine has always been finnicky with ammo but it's a fun plinker; pretty damn accurate actually for a short barrel .22 pistol!
  11. 1917-1911M

    1917-1911M New Member

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    You don't need a new hammer. What has happened is that you have removed just a bit too much metal from the hammer face and the slide is no longer pressing it far enough rearward for the sear to reliably drop into the cock notch. Since it does not do this with every shot....you are right on the edge.

    The cure is to disassemble the pistol, remove the hammer and very carefully stone the cocking notch. This will remove some material from the cock notch and allow the sear to drop without the hammer being pressed so far rearward. You might have to do the same thing to a stock pistol if you ever fire so many rounds that there is wear between the slide grooves and frame rails. Wear here allows the slide to lift and not be able to press the hammer far enough rearward for cocking.

    Caution though! Work on the sear or hammer cocking notch is serious work. This is where gunsmiths carefully adjust trigger pull and it must be done correctly or the hammer can slip off the sear. Take a very close look at the angle of the stock cock notch before you go filing any of it off. Keep your stoning or filing exactly at the same angle. Regarding how much material to remove.....that is somewhat trial and error. But you will be removing very, very little material. Like 0.001" or 0.002" from the cock notch. Thin sheet of paper amount, then assemble and test.

    Do not work on the sear. Keep your work neat and proceed slowly. You can always take off more metal but you can't put any back on. This will restore your cocking. For others removing the tip from the hammer face the hammer must measure a little greater than 1/2" when measured from the face to the rear of the knurles. All you have to do is remove the little tip that is present between the two faces, nothing more.

    The test for proper sear function after work here is, with an unloaded pistol cock the hammer and try to force it to fall with your thumb. If you can't then your sear work was good. The next test is to fire with one round, make sure the hammer is cocked and then try to press it off the sear with your thumb. If you can't you are good to go. M1911
  12. aa1911

    aa1911 Active Member

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    hey, many thanks! I will give her a whirl, I've some decent experience with stoning hammer/sears in 1911's and a couple others so I will go slow and careful. (what I should have done in the first place with the hammer, got overzealous). I think I was all of 21 when I did the 'break in' procedure for this thing, won't make the same mistake!

    But still good to know info on this pistol, thanks again! It is my little plinker/fun pistol so I don't mind cuttin' away on this thing at all. Gemtech makes a really nice suppressor for it too! It could be one hellufa froggin' pistol with a laser/light combo.
  13. 1917-1911M

    1917-1911M New Member

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    What I'd recommend is "frog grabbin". Here is how it works. One guy drives the boat along about 40' out from the bank while one guy sits in the front with a head light. When you see a frogs eyes light up point in for the driver so he will know to head in toward the bank. Keep the light on the frog at all times. if you don't he will jump. Drive the boat slowly right over him. It is the responsibility of the guy in front with the light to reach down, bringing your hand in from behind the frog so as to not disturb the light and grab him behind the head. Then you throw him in a wet gunny sack alive and that way when you get in a 1 am you don't have to clean them until the next day. Just keep the bag wet and in a cool spot. M1911
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