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Do NFA regulations apply to antique firearms?

21K views 49 replies 11 participants last post by  zant 
#1 · (Edited)
I know that firearms manufactured before 1899 are generally exempt from federal firearms regulations, but I'm having trouble finding specific references to this in NFA stuff.

Here's a little background. Though generally friendly to NFA items, Indiana state law disallows all short-barreled shotguns.
http://www.in.gov/legislative/ic/code/title35/ar47/ch5.html said:
IC 35-47-5-4.1
Sawed-off shotgun
Sec. 4.1. (a) A person who:
(1) manufactures;
(2) causes to be manufactured;
(3) imports into Indiana;
(4) keeps for sale;
(5) offers or exposes for sale; or
(6) gives, lends, or possesses;
any sawed-off shotgun commits dealing in a sawed-off shotgun, a Class D felony.
As added by P.L.1-1990, SEC.351. Amended by P.L.2-1991, SEC.107.
However, this regulation doesn't apply to shotguns manufactured prior to 1899.
http://www.in.gov/legislative/ic/code/title35/ar47/ch5.html said:
IC 35-47-5-5
Application of chapter
Sec. 5. This chapter does not apply to any firearm not designed to use fixed cartridges or fixed ammunition, or any firearm made before January 1, 1899.
As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.32.
I am having trouble finding an equivalent exemption within Federal law, though. It may be an issue of familiarity, or it may be an issue of volume :rolleyes:, but I seldom have any trouble at all finding what I'm looking for in Indiana law. Federal law always baffles me though.

Anyone have any knowledge and a citation? I would love to buy an old SxS and convert it to a short barreled snake destroyer, but I don't want to commit a felony.

Thanks.
 
#33 ·
No. It doesn't. Reread the law.

If it was made prior to 1899 it is NOT a gun. If it is a copy of a gun made prior to 1899, THAT DOES NOT USE AMMO READILY AVAILABLE it is NOT a gun.

The "readily available ammo only applies to COPIES of older guns.

As I said, earlier in this thread, if I have a Colt SAA, made in 1880, chambered in 45 Colt, it is not a gun, because it was made before 1899. Don't matter the chambering - it's old. If I get a brand new Colt SAA, from the custom shop, chambered in 450 Ely, it is not a gun. Because it is a copy of an old gun, chambered in a round that is not "readily available".

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firear...arms-ammunition-gun-control-act-definitions-0

>The term "Antique Firearm" means:

A. Any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; and

B. Any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica

  1. is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
  2. uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.
C. Any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term antique firearm shall not include any weapon which includes a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock or any combination thereof. <

 
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#34 ·
Also, the Feds have decided that, even if a machine gun was made prior to 1899 (there are a few), it is not an "antique gun", and is still a firearm.

The following is not FEDERAL definition of a firearm, it is NFA definition of a firearm.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/5845

>For the purpose of this chapter-
(a) Firearm

The term "firearm" means (1) a shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (2) a weapon made from a shotgun if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (3) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (5) any other weapon, as defined in subsection (e); (6) a machinegun; (7) any silencer (as defined in section 921 of title 18, United States Code); and (8) a destructive device. The term "firearm" shall not include an antique firearm or any device (other than a machinegun or destructive device) which, although designed as a weapon, the Secretary finds by reason of the date of its manufacture, value, design, and other characteristics is primarily a collector's item and is not likely to be used as a weapon.<
 
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#35 ·
would that c96 still then be C&R, it meets many of the tests. over 50 years, etc. And depending on specifically what c96 it is, it may fall under the 'all semi-auto/revolver used by/made for - military' sentence at the top of the C&R list.

That is a firearms made before 1899 for which no ammunition is currently made in the U.S. and is not readily available.
If you buy for example a C-96 Mauser Pistol it requires the same rules as a new Glock. Even though the C-96 was made say, in 1897.
,
 
#36 ·
The C96 when attached to a stock that is a reproduction becomes an NFA firearm. It is an SBR.
I think there is a misunderstanding of the rules concerning the mountains of laws surrounding guns made before 1899.
I have been collecting the C96 pistols and Lugers for years. A lack of knowledge on these guns can get you into trouble.
 
#37 ·
The C96 when attached to a stock that is a reproduction becomes an NFA firearm. It is an SBR.
I think there is a misunderstanding of the rules concerning the mountains of laws surrounding guns made before 1899.
I have been collecting the C96 pistols and Lugers for years. A lack of knowledge on these guns can get you into trouble.
You are correct.. there is a lack of knowledge about this. in your own post. ;)

here is the ATF text of a ruling saying that original and repro stocks that CLOSELY APPROXIMATE the original are also removed from the nfa. ( same for hi powers and navy/artillary lugers, etc. )

Time to read up.. ATF changes their mind often.

-------------
Mr. XXXXXXX,

This is in reference to your email (below) in which you inquire about the legality of affixing an original or reproduction shoulder stock to a Model 1896 broomhandle semiautomatic pistol. Your email was forwarded to the Firearms Technology Branch (FTB) for reply.

A rifle having a barrel of less than 16 inches in length is a firearm as that term is defined in Title 26, United States Code (U.S.C.), Chapter 53, § 5845(a)(3). If a pistol were possessed with an attachable shoulder stock, the combination would be a firearm as defined. Weapons of this type are subject to the provisions of the National Firearms Act (NFA).

However, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) has previously determined that by reason of the date of their manufacture, value, design, and other characteristics, the following when possessed with an attachable shoulder stock, are primarily collector's items and are not likely to be used as weapons, and, therefore, are excluded from the provisions of the NFA:

Mauser, model 1896 semiautomatic pistol accompanied by original German mfd. detachable wooden holster/shoulder stocks, all semiautomatic German mfd. variations produced prior to 1940, any caliber.

Further, ATF has determined that such firearms are curios or relics as defined in Title 26, Code of Federal Regulations, Part 178, § 178.11 and, therefore, would still be subject to the Gun Control Act of 1968.

ATF has previously determined that Mauser Model 1896 pistols with reproduction stocks, which duplicate or closely approximate the originals, have also been removed from the provisions of the NFA. Copies of the Mauser pistol using frames of recent manufacture, with shoulder stocks, are still subject to the NFA.

If an individual possesses a pistol and shoulder stock combination that has not been removed from the provisions of the NFA, the combination would constitute a firearm subject to the provisions of the NFA. The fact that the stock was not attached to the pistol would have no bearing on this classification.

We trust the foregoing has been responsive to your inquiry. If we can be of any further assistance, please contact us.

Firearms Technology Branch
 
#49 ·
To hell with the brace (I don't have one, and think the whole idea is pretty stupid, so I don't care:p).

I'm more interested in this.

>Tech Branch letters directly from DC are what everyone I know that modifies MGs or SBR-dealers that want to modify existing eg:Task Slowfire kit for MAC10-which turns a useless bullet hose into a major contender in MG matchs,beating MP5s on a regular basis, uses to keep within the "law.<

How would "modifying a machinegun" change anything, and require a letter? "Once a machinegun - always a machinegun".

So I have a MAC. Runs at 1200. I do something to it to slow it down to 650. It's still MAC SN 123. It's still got paper. WHY would I need some ATF approval to slow it down?
 
#50 ·
To hell with the brace (I don't have one, and think the whole idea is pretty stupid, so I don't care:p).

I'm more interested in this.

>Tech Branch letters directly from DC are what everyone I know that modifies MGs or SBR-dealers that want to modify existing eg:Task Slowfire kit for MAC10-which turns a useless bullet hose into a major contender in MG matchs,beating MP5s on a regular basis, uses to keep within the "law.<

How would "modifying a machinegun" change anything, and require a letter? "Once a machinegun - always a machinegun".

So I have a MAC. Runs at 1200. I do something to it to slow it down to 650. It's still MAC SN 123. It's still got paper. WHY would I need some ATF approval to slow it down?
It didn't just them slow them down-it was basically a completely new firearm except for rcvr-contact Dan Shea,Monty Mildenhall, StanAndrewski-all nationally known NFA dealers/gunsmiths-they always get a letter from Tech Branch for any modification to an NFA firearm(except handgrip,handguard,etc)Better safe than you and your family dying.
 
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