Documentary...Waco: Rules of engagement

Discussion in 'The Fire For Effect and Totally Politically Incorr' started by kerk, Jan 12, 2010.

  1. kerk

    kerk New Member

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    Just watched it again on the Documetary Channel. Been a while since I saw it last.

    Nobody fired, nobody prosecuted. And after the dog and pony senate show, Hatch and Biden just swept it under the rug.

    Good refresher on gov. corruption.
  2. rentalguy1

    rentalguy1 Former Guest

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    I'd like to see that, but I don't know if I get that channel. I don't watch a lot of TV. It usually just gets my dander up.
  3. Maximilian II

    Maximilian II New Member

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    TV rots your brain, play videogames instead. At least you have a hand in the outcome.
  4. Haligan

    Haligan Well-Known Member

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  5. ampaterry

    ampaterry *TFF Admin Staff Chaplain* Staff Member Supporting Member

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    Years ago, we bought several of those on VHS tape and passed them out to anyone that would watch it.
    Judy got in touch with Thibedeau (I think that is right) who was there, to get the straight story also.

    I was always amazed that John and Suzy Q. Public could watch the news coverage showing all these agents hiding behind their vehicles as they fired into this church - er, I mean COMPOUND - and talked about all the weaponry the folks inside had, and yet not a single vehicle they hid behind had a hole in it, not a single window was broken, etc.
    Either the Davidians were the worst shots in history -
    Or they were NOT SHOOTING BACK!

    A TRAVESTY, but a wake-up call for a lot of Americans -

    But at least they protected all those children from the evil preacher -
    Too bad they burned them to death in the process -
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2010
  6. Big ugly

    Big ugly New Member

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    I watched both videos, I did not wtch the Alex Jones video. I am goin to say this once and only once. The FBI and the ATF killed those people intentionally. Those women, and children were not allowed to escape. Three of the children had bullet wounds in them. One of the women was shot multiple times while holding a five year old child while trying to escape the fire. Jim Brannon is related to me, he is one of the lawyers that worked for the Dividians. He represented them for several years before the Waco incident and represented some of the survivors after.

    I am the way I am about government through personal and realtive experiences. And this is one of my earliest experiences that convinced me that our government is trash, our FBI is trash, the ATF is trash. All those politicians are trash. Biden is a piece of dog scat. That man is scum for the coverup and the coments he made to cover the FBI's tracks.

    This is one of those things that should not have happened. The company with the reports on the FLIR video should have stood up for those people murdered. Chicken Chit, Gonverment snowballed and we accept it. The media lied on those people, Big shock.
  7. rentalguy1

    rentalguy1 Former Guest

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    David Koresh was a douche, and I can stand any religious/political cult; including the Baptist church. I believe those people were killed by the government, though. I don't think the officers that fired the shots knew that the Davidians were unarmed, though. I think they were following orders...blindly
  8. ampaterry

    ampaterry *TFF Admin Staff Chaplain* Staff Member Supporting Member

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    Do you really think all those guys firing for all that length of time did not notice no one was shooting back at them?

    I have no idea what David Koresh was like. The people in town there seemed to think he was OK, and the Child Services department that went out to his home found no evidence of wrongoing.
    Now, it is difficult to question him -
    Which may have been one of the purposes -
  9. red14

    red14 Active Member

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    Wasn't Clinton in charge? Funny how many things just happened when he was in charge. Wasn't Ruby Ridge eerily similar?
  10. rentalguy1

    rentalguy1 Former Guest

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    I think if you're in a high adrenaline situation, and chatter is coming through the headset, or up the line, that you are receiving fire, and you are hearing shots fired in every direction, then that is your reality. Unfortunately it is sometimes realized after the fact that no one was shooting at you.

    Red - I think at Ruby Ridge, the feds were actually receiving fire.
  11. red14

    red14 Active Member

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    I heard that also. But, not everyone agrees who fired first. When the 13 year old was shot by a sniper, I believe no one was firing.

    There were some differences, but some sililarity also. I just notice when people cross the Clintons, people can end up dead. An awful lot of heart disease follows those people.
  12. topper

    topper New Member

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    Waco was an uncalled for travesty. A total waste of LEO manpower, wasted tax dollars and a media blitz. It could have all been avoided and done quietly if the people in charge would just use a little restraint and common sense. All that would have to be done was to wait Koresh out. An APB on him and wait until he goes to town and quietly pick him up and the situation is over. Without there fearless leader the Davidians would have gone quiet as sheep. A person from my church was in on that standoff and they said it was a debauchery from the start. Over $50Million spent for what? Just to kill all those people when it could have been eaisly avoided. Just an expensive 'show of force".
  13. ampaterry

    ampaterry *TFF Admin Staff Chaplain* Staff Member Supporting Member

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    Rentalguy, I can agree in a short term situation -
    Maybe even for several hours -
    Probably not for more than a day, when guys get off duty and have a bit of time to reflect.
    This standoff lasted for TWO MONTHS.
    And yes, it was BC with Janet Reno.

    At ruby ridge, the boy was out in the woods with his dog.
    A sniper shot the dog, and the kid shot into the brush in the direction the shot came from, hitting nothing. The agents then shot him in the back as he ran toward the house.

    That was under the older bush.

    Unconscionable.
  14. red14

    red14 Active Member

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    ""Over $50Million spent for what? Just to kill all those people when it could have been eaisly avoided.""

    ""Just an expensive 'show of force".""


    A revisit to the Clinton years. It's happening again.
  15. red14

    red14 Active Member

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    Thank you for the edit. Seeing children die, upsets me.
  16. ampaterry

    ampaterry *TFF Admin Staff Chaplain* Staff Member Supporting Member

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    Me too, red.

    It as bad enough in an accident, but when done on PURPOSE it is worse.

    And when the perps are our own government employees, it is the worst of all -

    Everyone involved should not have been simply fired, but brought up on criminal charges.
    And I would VOLUNTEER to sit on those jury trials -
  17. 45nut

    45nut Active Member

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    A time line of events:

    An undercover agent asked Weaver to sell him two shotguns, but told him he wanted them sawed off and pointed out where to do it, thus making them illegal. (can you say entrapment?)

    Next he was arrested and given a court date. They changed the court date and didn't notify him. Contempt added to charge.

    Instead pf just serving the warrant, they set up an elaborate 24 hour surveillance for 6 MONTHS!!

    They go in armed and get their cover blown by the dog. Two of the clan think the dog has smelled a deer and follow it. Randy sees the agents and yells ambush. The first shots appeared to have been fired by the FEEBS and the US Marshall was shot in response.

    FROM THE ARTICLE:

    But in writing the "rules of engagement" for the siege to follow, Rogers, who had not yet spoken to anyone who had actually been at the cabin, didn’t know about the 14 shots fired by the deputy marshals. He seemed to be under the impression that a fierce two-way gun battle was going on even as he wrote. So he decided that any armed adult outside the Weaver cabin should be subject to "shoot-to-kill" sniping, whether or not that person was menacing anyone.

    The arrival of the hostage team marked the beginning of buildup. At least 400 people equipped with sophisticated militar hardware, including "humvees," armored personnel carriers, and various aircraft, were eventually deployed in the woods around Randy Weaver’s plywood cabin.

    The rules of engagement supposedly required a warning before any shots were fired, but that didn’t happen. On August 22, the day after the shootout, Randy Weaver left the cabin for the little outbuilding that held his son’s body. As he raised his arm to unlatch the door to the shed, he was shot by a sniper posted on the mountainside. The bullet entered his right shoulder area and exited near his armpit. He and Kevin Harris, who was also outside, ran for the cabin. Vicki Weaver stood in the doorway, yelling for the two to hurry, cradling baby Elisheba in her arms. She was unarmed.

    As Kevin Harris tumbled into the house, another shot from the sniper went through the glass window and entered Vicki Weaver’s temple, killing her instantly. The bullet and fragments of Vicki’s skull went on to injure Kevin Harris’s arm and torso, breaking a rib and puncturing one of his lungs.

    The sniper, Lon Horiuchi, was a West Point graduate armed with state-of-the--art sniping equipment and trained to be accurate to within a quarter inch at 200 yards. He claims he missed Kevin and hit Vicki by accident. But Bo Gritz, the former Green Beret commander who eventually negotiated Randy Weaver’s surrender, said that after he became a negotiator the FBI showed him a psychological profile of the family prepared for the Marshals Service before the siege that described Vicki as the "dominant member" of the family. "Vicki was the maternal head of the family," Gritz told the Spokane Spokesmar-Review. "I believe Vicki was shot purposely by the sniper as a priority target....The profile said, if you get a chance, take Vicki Weaver out."


    Back to Waco:

    If CS is flammable and you know it, do you shoot it into an enclosed structure that is lit with kerosene lanterns?? Janet Reno did and she killed everybody there.

    article here

    Another assault came at 9am with the tanks inserting another four bottles of CS. By that time, the levels of tear gas inside the building were reaching extremely high levels. A 1995 report prepared by Failure Analysis Associates for the National Rifle Association estimated that when the third assault ended, CS concentrations inside the building ranged from "30 to 90 times that required to deter trained soldiers." The report also found that levels of methylene chloride, a compound similar to chloroform, were reaching levels nearly two times those considered "immediately dangerous to life and health" -- IDLH, a common measure of toxicity for chemical compounds.

    By the time of the fourth assault at 11:45, when a tank inserted another four canisters of tear gas, the FBI had run out of ferret rounds and began looking for more. According to the Failure Analysis report, in the minutes before the first fire was spotted at Mount Carmel at 12:07pm, CS concentrations ranged from five to 60 times the level needed to deter soldiers. Methylene chloride levels still exceeded IDLH standards. By the time the fire started, the Failure Analysis report estimates that the FBI had inserted about seven gallons of tear gas weighing more than 77 pounds. For comparison, the average canister of Mace, a common brand name for self-defense tear gas, contains about 2.5 ounces of CS.

    On Jan. 13, 1993, the United States and dozens of other countries signed the Chemical Weapons Convention, the most far-reaching treaty regarding prohibitions on the use of chemical weapons. The treaty bans the use of nerve agents, mustard gas, and other compounds, including tear gas, during wartime.

    Three months and six days after the U.S. signed the convention, the FBI used CS on the Branch Davidians.


    Oh yeah, it was intentional............and there's more to come.
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2010
  18. Redhand

    Redhand Active Member

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    I wonder who was presented the flag that was flown from the amtrak with the ram that burst thru the wall and started the fire? That in itself was a travesty and a slap in the face of every American.:mad::mad::mad:
  19. red14

    red14 Active Member

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    Sure glad Janet Reno is there to keep us safe.
  20. kerk

    kerk New Member

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    Two point from the Waco piece, that especially irk me:

    1. A survivor said they had a female Malamute with puppies outside the house. Before the 1st assault, the agents shot the dog.

    Dogs seem to be popular targets for trigger happy LEO's. They're legal to shoot and their family's can't sue. What better choice when you just hafta shoot something.

    2. After the event, the ATF ran their flag up the flagpole, as if claiming victory, and the territory.

    Can you say 'low class'.
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