Egyptian Hakim-Ljungman Ammo ???

Discussion in 'Curio & Relics Forum' started by LDBennett, Nov 29, 2007.

  1. LDBennett

    LDBennett Well-Known Member

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    I recently purchased a Hakim rifle and fired it last weekend. Several things happened. The case rim was destroyed by the extractor trying to pull the cartridge out of the chamber when the pressure was still high. And the case hit the ejector so hard it displace part of the rim in the process. The cases were flung 25 feet forward (suppose to be only 6 ot 8 feet!)

    I know, the gas pressure regulator is set to deliver too much gas and the timing of the opening of the bolt is too early and too fast due to the high gas pressure setting. I have freed up the regulator, fixed the detent plate and have set the adjuster to minimum pressure and only need to go to the range to see the effect.

    Recent searches on the Internet revealed a couple of facts. The Egyptian ammo is supposed a weak version of 8mm x 57 Mauser.

    * Anyone have any specs on the bullet weight and velocity of the weak Egytian ammo???

    I normally shoot 175 grain Sierra bullet in 8mm Mauser bolt guns. According to Sierra the 49.5 grain load of H380 is mid level at 2450 FPS (It exceeds Hodgdon's recommended load for 170 grain bullet by 0.5 grains ??).

    * Is that load also increasing the pressure above the Hakim design limits?

    * Has anyone sucessfully loaded for this gun? What bullet weight, powder, powder load got you to the empties being spit out only 6 to 8 feet from the gun with no brass damage?

    As I don't want to hurt the gun, I don't want to try it again until I get some answers.

    Thanks,

    LDBennett
  2. TRAP55

    TRAP55 Active Member

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    LD, the Yugoslav and Romanian light ball works the best in mine. Be wary of using a heavy load in it, it can and will break hard to find parts. Turk 8mm is loaded hot and heavy, it's the only surplus ammo I know of to avoid using in the Hakim.
    One of the moderators on Mauser Central, marysdad, I believe is working up some handloads for his. He's also found a way to cut another notch in the gas adjustment to handle heavier loads like the Turk surplus. I'll see what I can find out and let you know.
  3. LDBennett

    LDBennett Well-Known Member

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    TRAP55:

    I'd be interested in where he ends up with the reloads.

    As for the gas regulation......The gas regulator currently appears to me to work in a way that does not reflect what many say here.

    There is a hole from the barrel that shoots gases straight up into a small chamber in the regulator block. There is a hole in the regulator block drilled parallel to the barrel bore that feeds straight back to the bolt. The 90 degree change of direction is a channel in the bottom of the adjuster screw angled at 45 degrees of about the same width and depth as the hole leading to the bolt.

    When the screw is at 6 o'clock it appears that everything lines up and you get max pressure. It appears to me that if you turn the adjuster screw either way then the channel in the adjuster screw blocks part of exit hole in the regulator block (??). It appears that turning it either direction from 6 o'clock would decrease the gas pressure. But that is not what any of the literature says. Is the difference in minute details of the positions of the channel and the holes????? What did I miss?

    Following my line of thought it appears that a 4 o'clock setting (or how ever far it will turn counter clockwise) reduces the gas flow to zero. Turning clockwise to 6 o'clock results in ever increasing pressure. Continued turning clockwise to about 8 o'clock (about as far as it will go) again reduces the gas pressure again, perhaps to zero.

    Anybody agree with this???????

    LDBennett
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2007
  4. TRAP55

    TRAP55 Active Member

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    LD, here's the gas valve adjustment procedure:
    http://www.john-oliver.net/shooting/hakim/5.html
    With any given "new to you" load, start with the valve all the way clockwise to prevent breaking the gun. Adjust one notch at a time until they all eject about 6ft from you. BEFORE you start, make sure the gas system is clean, all of these rifles had corrosive ammo shot through them, some are pretty nasty inside.
    Scroll down to figure #22 to see how it comes apart here, fig #40 on how to put it back together:
    http://www.surplusrifle.com/hakim/rifledisassembly/index.asp
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2007
  5. LDBennett

    LDBennett Well-Known Member

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    TRAP55:

    Per the attachment (the link you supplied) my investigation of the actual parts shows that 6 o'clock is max pressure and Counterclockwise is LESS pressure. Turning it from 6 o'clock Clockwise also reduces the gas pressure but it wil only turn to about 8 o'clock in that direction. But it appears to be able to turn to maybe 3 o'clock in the oposite direction. So it seems that you would start at all the way counterclockwise to about 3 o'clock and slowly open it towards 6 o'clock (???).

    I don't understand why the diagram indicates otherwise (????). I'll admit I could be wrong and anyone with practical experience of what happens when the adjuster is turned to 3 o'clock would be appreciated.

    This is not an academic concern but one in which I don't want to hurt the gun anymore than I already have. I need absolute validation that I am wrong and the diagram is right. Can anyone do that?

    LDBennett

    Attached Files:

  6. TRAP55

    TRAP55 Active Member

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    My bad:eek: , I meant clockwise
  7. LDBennett

    LDBennett Well-Known Member

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    TRAP55:

    I'm still confused!

    Lets talk "o'clock". I say start at 3 o'clock and move towards 6 o'clock to increase the gas pressure. Also it appears you can start about 8 o'clock and move towards 6 o'clock to increase the pressure. 6 o'clock is max pressure, the way I see it.

    The first approach (3 towards 6) appears to have more notches to get to full pressure and consequently finer in adjustment, including to be able to turn the gas completely off which I do not think is possible (??) if you start at 8 and go towards 6.

    I do not understand why the literature does not say this?? Did I analyze the parts wrong?? Again, anyone do this 3 towards 6 and see the pressure almost off or off and get higher the more towards 6.

    I hate to keep hitting on this but I want to know before going to the range!

    I may just have to take it apart again and verify it or force air through it to see the effect???

    Thanks for staying with me on this.

    LDBennett
  8. TRAP55

    TRAP55 Active Member

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    LD, muzzle away from you looking down on top, should be pointing at about 9 or 10 o'clock. That is the lightest setting for lite loads. Heavy ball, it will be pointing at about 4 or 5 o'clock.
  9. LDBennett

    LDBennett Well-Known Member

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    TRAP55:

    That's certainly is what the literature says but I can not verify that with the way it is designed ????? Or at least the way I interpretate the design. I had it apart and observed it as I stated before so ??????

    I think I'll see if I can rig up an air test of some kind to verify what you and the literature say is true. I suppose mine could be have a different adjustment screw ?????

    LDBennett
  10. TRAP55

    TRAP55 Active Member

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    LD, I'm still getting my PC back up to speed after a hack and crash. Soon as I do, I'll get some pics up of mine for comparison.
  11. LDBennett

    LDBennett Well-Known Member

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    TRAP55:

    I'm sorry man! I had it all wrong.

    The plate under the adjuster screw limits the screw movement to about 30 degrees. The gun gets full gas with the adjuster turned fully counterclockwise. The plate under the screw limits the movement for full gas to be at 6 o'clock. As you turn the adjuster screw clockwise you limit the gas and the plate under the adjuster screw limits you to about 7:30 o'clock.

    A better inspection would have shown me that! I also ran air through the system and indeed in the range of adjustment allowed (6 to 7:30 o'clock) you go from full to less. The gas never gets fully turned off but changes substantially. So less gas is clockwise just like the literature says.

    When I had the adjuster set at 6 o'clock (the way the gun came to me!) it had maximum gas pressure. No wonder it screwed up the brass by opening too early! I'll start this time with the gas adjuster screw at full clockwise and work counterclockwise until the gun operates reliably. I fully expect the gun to not do a full extraction cycle at this minimum gas setting.

    To the range!!!!!

    LDBennett
  12. TRAP55

    TRAP55 Active Member

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    Take a rubber mallet to open that bolt, just in case!;)
  13. LDBennett

    LDBennett Well-Known Member

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    TRAP55:

    Does the bolt lock back on the last shot? I can't remember from the little unsucessful shooting that I did earlier with it.

    If it does then I would think you load one round, minimum gas pressure and see if the bolt locks open. Try sucessive shots slowly increasing the gas one click at a time until the bolt reliably locks back on one round every time. I would think you would be good to go when you got there.

    I want to wait to do the testing until my son-in-law is along so he can spot brass for me and help get the gas setup right. He was as excited about this gun as I was when I first contemplated buying it. Since he found it for me he deserves to be part of the initial set up process and to get to shoot it. Our plans are for New Years weekend, weather permitting, since we will both be at our club range in Kernville, CA for the New Years celebration at his vacation home. Can't wait! I dearly love these large caliber semi-auto rifles from before the M-16/AR15 era.

    LDBennett
  14. TRAP55

    TRAP55 Active Member

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    Yes, locks back after the last round. After you get it dialed in, you'll be surprised at how little the recoil is on rapid fire. I have one of the 25 round MG-13 mags for mine, it adds about 2lbs when loaded. I just wish the surplus ammo was as cheap as it use to be!:(
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Curio & Relics Forum Egyptian Hakin-Ljungman Oct 5, 2007

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