Ever heard of an American made 91/30?

Discussion in 'Curio & Relics Forum' started by hkruss, Nov 29, 2011.

  1. hkruss

    hkruss Active Member

    Mar 13, 2008
    Mobile, Al.
    Last gun show I went to, some guy had a rack full of MN's for sale.
    Among them was a 91/30 that he said was American made. Seems like he told me that Remington made some (although I might be mistaken).
    I can't remember the price on it, but if what he said was true, would it be worth more than a Russian or Finn. Seems like it would be more of a collectors item.

  2. woolleyworm

    woolleyworm Well-Known Member

    Feb 23, 2009
    SW Fort Worth
    Remington and NE Westinghouse both made Nagants for the Russians; many of them were sporterized and rechambered. There were several million produced, so they're usually a little higher in value, but not too much more.

    7.62x54r.net is a great site if you're a Nagant junkie.

  3. nynomad

    nynomad Member

    Apr 8, 2010
    Learn something new every day!
  4. Jim K

    Jim K New Member

    Dec 6, 2009
    Technically, the American made rifles were 91's as they were made in the WWI era, prior to 1930, but any in Russian hands would likely have been upgraded.

    The original contracts were for 1.8 million from New England Westinghouse and 1.5 million from Remington. When the Russian Communists took over, they cancelled the contracts and few, if any, American made rifles actually went to Russia.

    The companies, in debt due to tooling up, appealed to the U.S. government with the result that the Army bought M-N rifles for training purposes. By that time, of course, the U.S. was in the war and the standard M1903 was in very short supply, so American-made 91's did serve against the Germans after all. Many were actually used against Russians, though. When the U.S. sent troops to Russia to fight the Bolsheviks, those rifles were issued to them since ammunition would be available in Russia.

    Many years later, in the Cold War, Soviet propagandists were able to claim that while the Soviet Union was never anything but "peace-loving", the American imperialists had once invaded Russia in an attempt to "suppress the people's revolution."

  5. warriflefan

    warriflefan Member

    Sep 4, 2011
    Meadow Vista, CA
    The french made some too, although I'm not sure if they bring a premium of any kind, something them failing to fire during even the smallest confrontation ;0)
  6. jack404

    jack404 Former Guest

    Jan 11, 2010
    i have US made and russian made one each no difference in the shooting and actually prefer the wood on the ruski..
  7. Boris

    Boris Former Guest

    Oct 1, 2010
    They were made in France in 1891 for the first year.

    I have an odd ball MN made in France. All numbers match. Everything I have found says the only year they were made in France was 1891. I have one made in France from 1892. No clue what it would be worth since they obviously were made in 1892 there, yet there is no supporting evidence other than my 1892 dated French rifle. Even more amazing is with 182 grain FMJ-BT it shoots .75" all day long from the 31.5" barrel. I shoot it from time to time. Still smooth for it's age....
  8. jack404

    jack404 Former Guest

    Jan 11, 2010
    Boris heres the english translation from the russian documentation

    May 10th, 1890, first official consultations between the representatives of the Czar and the ones of the French weapons factories happened. The businessman and French representative of the factories, Adrien Treuille, had been authorized by the French War Ministry, to run the negotiations. His partners on the Russian side were Lieutenant General Tschagin, head of the Russian commission for the acquirement of a rifle with small caliber, and the Russian military attaché in Paris, Lieutenant General Baron von Freedericksz. The first agreement on 300.000 single shot rifles was may 21st, 1891. The executing factory should be Saint Etienne. Some weeks later the order was changed. July 16th, 1890, Mr. Treuille got a new, pretty uncertain, order on 500.000 magazine fed rifles. At this time it was not clear, what rifles should be manufactured and at what cost. But a new factory was chosen: Chatellerault. Up to now the reasons for the relocation from Saint Etienne to Chatellerault are not clear.

    December 31st, 1890, General Freedericksz told Mr. Treuille, that the order would work. Up to June 1st, 1891, the (handmade) five master weapons should be in Chatellerault. They really arrived in time. The technical department of the French Artillery took the rifles to pieces and examined them. After that the price for the single weapon was fixed: 48,65 Francs including the bayonet. Added to that price had to be 3 fr for the production expenses, 0,35 fr for proof shooting and another 7 fr as fees of the factory. The total price therefore arose to 59 fr. It was a good deal for the French factory, because the average costs for one rifle soon decreased from 50,8942 fr to 37,9802 fr in November 1894. It is interesting to know, that essential parts of the raw material, like the stock-wood, raw barrels and the raw steel for the entire chamber had to be delivered from Russia.

    The treaty was signed December 19th, 1891. The French Government accepted to deliver 503.750 Three-Line-Rifles M1891 in the time from 1892 up to 1894. A Russian control commission came to Chatellerault October 20th, 1891. First there were only two persons, Colonel Sokerine as head of the commission, and Lieutenant Prince Gagarine. January 1893 the next member, Captain Kholodovski, and September 12th, 1893, the last one, Captain Orloff, arrived in Chatellerault. But there were many delays in starting the production. Blueprints, tools etc. did not come in time from Russia. It was April 18th, 1892, when some very important parts, like the master barrel and a master bayonet, arrived. So the first rifle M. 1891 was assembled only in July 1892.

    The following table shows the number of established machines and employed workers during the production of the Three-Line-Rifles in Chatellerault:


    Building one rifle needed altogether 42 hours of work with 1446 different stages of work and 812 proof measurements.

    Production, Deliverance

    In the treaty you find that in the first nine month of production Chatellerault had to produce the parts of the rifles only, not to assemble rifles. In the tenth month, which means from July 19th to august 19th, they had to assemble 100 rifles per day in 25 working days per month. There had to be an increase of production every month, 175, 250, 325, 400, 475, 550, 625, 700, 775, 850 and 925 per day in the next months. From July 19th, 1893, there had to be a production of 1.000 rifles per day, which means 25.000 per month. The last month of this high production should be the 33rd from June 19th to July 19th, 1894. After that there was a monthly decrease from 800, 600 and 400 per day in the following months and than there should be a daily production of 200 from October 19th, 1894 to January 19th, 1895.

    It seems that the factory fulfilled the time schedule very well, though different French sources tell us different dates of deliverance. So the facts remain a little bit sketchy. One source says, that the first 25.000 rifles had been assembled by September 1892 and shipped from Dünkirchen to St. Petersburg, where they arrived October 3rd, 1892. In 1894 alone there should be a production of 475.000 rifles! Another source tells us the total amount of assembled rifles in September 1892 to be 153 and the daily production 4 rifles. In January 1893 the total production was 3.520 rifles with 150 rifles assembled daily at the end of this month. Up to January 1895 the total production shall have been 461.800 rifles M91. If you remember that the first five rifles have been accepted in December 1892, a fact clearly proofed by the letters of Colonel Sokerine, the source telling us about the deliverance of the first 25.000 rifles in September 1892 is obviously wrong.

    But it is a fact too that Chatellerault delivered all weapons in time. The last crate with the number 25.129 was delivered April 25th, 1895 with the remaining 17 rifles. Altogether not 503.750 rifles, but 503.539 "only“ were shipped to Russia.

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Nov 30, 2011
  9. jack404

    jack404 Former Guest

    Jan 11, 2010
    and the serial list is

    ( you aint the only one aware of "post production rifles" ;) )

    Attached Files:

  10. jack404

    jack404 Former Guest

    Jan 11, 2010
    if you wish to know more about the frenchie mosin, find a gent Karl Heinz on http://mosinnagant.net, nice guy and a good historian
  11. Boris

    Boris Former Guest

    Oct 1, 2010
    I researched it for years and talked to some so called experts.

    This is why I love this place.

    Thanks for the info. I even bought a book on it back before the web was in wide use and it even said only 1891 was when French rifles were made. Don't matter to me. I shoot it and love how it feels with that long ass barrel. That and the looks I get when the fellas watch through their spotting scopes.
  12. jack404

    jack404 Former Guest

    Jan 11, 2010
    Russians document EVERYTHING , theyre as bad as germans that way , they just dont share it all well ;)

    if you get stuck on anything ruski , give me a shout , i may not know it or have it but its a good bet i'll know where to go ..
  13. okie headhunter

    okie headhunter New Member

    Nov 28, 2011
    tulsa ok
    the american made mod 91's were called white russians. the czar had orded them but the communist took over the goverment before they were payed for.so the russian made ones were "red russians" and the us made were the "white russians". it's pretty weird. the us army took a bunch of them,some were sold on the cilivian market. others were given to milatary schools.
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2011
  14. RJay

    RJay Well-Known Member

    Feb 22, 2004
    Goodyear, Arizona
    Hello Okie, I've heard of a White Russian drink, A white Russian Army ( anti- Bolshevik ), The white movement, but never have I heard the term of white and red Russians in regards to a firearm. Are you sure abut this? and just where is it that this term is used?
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2011
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