has anyone ever wanted to load some all copper barnes bullets but doing so in a caliber that there was no data at all available for? i have bought a box of 250 grain XPB 45 caliber bullets that i want to load for 45 winchester magnum and alas no data at all for. called and emailed western powder for use of #7 and #9 as those both work and have data for "normal" bullets and they gave me "calculated" info that i will most likley try but i really want to find a load using blue dot as well or instead. being a member of loaddata.com i emailed them with my situation and they are checking into it and gonna get back to me. i have found it best to put out alot of lines to catch the most so i am asking as many folks as possible. also, i called Barnes to see what they suggest and what they told me was to reduce load data by 20% for same weight and use that for start loads and if possible be sure to run thru chronograph to see results along with other overpressure signs like normal. these bullets are quite expensive so i am hoping not to have to go thru too many load developing, but will do whats necessary to have a good safe and and usable load. any suggestions?
I would do what Barnes suggested and work up very slow.
Check this out. I know it's only a computer model, but it may help you understand what that all copper bullet can do to pressures.
250gr Nosler.
Code:
Cartridge : .45 Win. Mag.
Bullet : .451, 250, Nosler JHP 43013
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.575 inch or 40.01 mm
Barrel Length : 10.0 inch or 254.0 mm
Powder : Alliant BLUE DOT
Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !
Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms
-20.0 73 14.40 1230 840 18633 2930 86.5 1.047
-18.0 75 14.76 1257 877 19655 3025 87.6 1.023
-16.0 77 15.12 1284 915 20722 3119 88.5 0.999
-14.0 79 15.48 1311 954 21834 3211 89.5 0.977
-12.0 80 15.84 1338 993 22993 3303 90.4 0.954
-10.0 82 16.20 1364 1033 24201 3393 91.2 0.931
-08.0 84 16.56 1391 1074 25461 3481 92.1 0.909
-06.0 86 16.92 1417 1115 26774 3568 92.8 0.888
-04.0 88 17.28 1443 1156 28141 3654 93.6 0.868
-02.0 90 17.64 1469 1198 29566 3737 94.3 0.849
[B]+00.0 91 18.00 1495 1241 31050 3819 94.9 0.830[/B]
+02.0 93 18.36 1521 1284 32597 3898 95.5 0.812
+04.0 95 18.72 1546 1328 34208 3975 96.1 0.794 ! Near Maximum !
+06.0 97 19.08 1572 1372 35886 4050 96.6 0.778 ! Near Maximum !
+08.0 99 19.44 1597 1416 37635 4123 97.1 0.761 ! Near Maximum !
+10.0 101 19.80 1622 1461 39458 4193 97.5 0.746 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 91 18.00 1564 1357 36145 3861 98.8 0.777 ! Near Maximum !
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 91 18.00 1409 1102 26116 3637 88.2 0.897
250gr Rainier.
Code:
Cartridge : .45 Win. Mag.
Bullet : .451, 250, FP Rainier LC
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.575 inch or 40.01 mm
Barrel Length : 10.0 inch or 254.0 mm
Powder : Alliant BLUE DOT
Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !
Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms
-20.0 75 14.40 1228 837 17933 2910 86.0 1.059
-18.0 76 14.76 1255 875 18983 3005 87.1 1.031
-16.0 78 15.12 1283 913 20080 3100 88.1 1.004
-14.0 80 15.48 1310 953 21225 3194 89.1 0.978
-12.0 82 15.84 1337 993 22419 3286 90.1 0.954
-10.0 84 16.20 1364 1033 23666 3377 90.9 0.930
-08.0 86 16.56 1391 1074 24966 3466 91.8 0.908
-06.0 88 16.92 1418 1116 26323 3553 92.6 0.886
-04.0 89 17.28 1444 1158 27737 3639 93.4 0.866
-02.0 91 17.64 1471 1201 29213 3722 94.1 0.846
[B]+00.0 93 18.00 1497 1244 30752 3804 94.8 0.827[/B]
+02.0 95 18.36 1523 1288 32357 3883 95.4 0.808
+04.0 97 18.72 1549 1332 34031 3960 96.0 0.791 ! Near Maximum !
+06.0 99 19.08 1575 1377 35777 4035 96.5 0.774 ! Near Maximum !
+08.0 101 19.44 1601 1422 37599 4107 97.0 0.757 ! Near Maximum !
+10.0 103 19.80 1626 1468 39499 4177 97.5 0.742 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 93 18.00 1567 1363 36061 3848 98.8 0.773 ! Near Maximum !
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 93 18.00 1409 1103 25607 3619 87.9 0.897
Now the 250gr Barnes XPB.
Code:
Cartridge : .45 Win. Mag.
Bullet : .451, 250, Barnes 'X' PB 45123
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.575 inch or 40.01 mm
Barrel Length : 10.0 inch or 254.0 mm
Powder : Alliant BLUE DOT
Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !
Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms
-20.0 117 14.40 1420 1119 40209 2743 92.5 0.802 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-18.0 120 14.76 1452 1171 43178 2813 93.4 0.779 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-16.0 122 15.12 1485 1223 46371 2881 94.3 0.757 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-14.0 125 15.48 1517 1277 49807 2946 95.0 0.735 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-12.0 128 15.84 1549 1332 53512 3007 95.8 0.715 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-10.0 131 16.20 1581 1388 57510 3065 96.5 0.696 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-08.0 134 16.56 1614 1445 61832 3119 97.1 0.677 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-06.0 137 16.92 1646 1503 66515 3169 97.6 0.659 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-04.0 140 17.28 1678 1562 71596 3215 98.1 0.641 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-02.0 143 17.64 1709 1622 77124 3256 98.6 0.625 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
[B]+00.0 146 18.00 1741 1683 83151 3293 99.0 0.608 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE![/B]
+02.0 149 18.36 1773 1745 89741 3325 99.3 0.593 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0 152 18.72 1805 1808 96968 3351 99.5 0.578 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0 155 19.08 1837 1872 104920 3372 99.7 0.563 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0 157 19.44 1868 1938 113702 3388 99.9 0.549 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0 160 19.80 1900 2004 123440 3397 100.0 0.535 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 146 18.00 1799 1796 97576 3159 100.0 0.577 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 146 18.00 1660 1529 69171 3294 94.7 0.651 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
wow, after looking at that, i really dont feel like messing with this at all. at least not using a somewhat expensive and hard to get parts for pistol. maybe if i ever get a barrel for a contender that shoots 45 win mag, i may give it a shot. thanks for that info.
i agree, blue dot is out unless i hear something back from Alliant Powder with positive sounding information and data. i really dont feel good about any part of this now. i dont see the attraction or any good use of the all copper bullet at all. it does have a very nice large hollow point and i am sure if tested with good load data would make a fine damaging round but alas, the possible damage just isnt worth all the trouble.
The above link will take you to Alliant's handgun loading data. Lets consider case volume and it effect on pressure. Here we compare .38 Special and 9x19 mm shooting essentially the same 125 & 124 grain projectiles. The 38 uses 4.5 Bullseye to get 914 fps driving a 0.357" projectile from a 6" barrel. Reduce the barrel to 4" and you will be lucky to get 859 fps. The pressure is likely just under 18,000 psi.
The 9x19 mm uses 4.4 Bullseye to drive a 124 grain, 0.355" projectile out of a 4" barrel at 1059 fps, at a likely pressure of just under 32,000 psi.
The 9x19 goes about 200 fps faster, using slightly less powder, because the the breech pressure is 1.78 trimes higher. The breech pressure is over 1 3/4 times higher because the is less free volume in the 9x19 case. About 20 years ago, Speer noted that if your bullet got shoved in 0.1" deeper on the feed stroke (using essentially this load) the pressure would rocket to over 70,000 psi. Bottom line, all other things being about equal, less free case volume increases pressure significantly.
The other big factor relative to higher or excess pressures is how easily the bullet can get moving and keep moving. It is very important to check the neck diameter of reloaded ammo. If the neck diameter exceeds loading manual "blueprint", scrap the round. Otherwise, you risk the bullet being held in the equivalent of a machinist's collet vise when the primer fires. {0.002" oversize will prevent a .40 S&W Glock from going into battery. If you hammer the slide into battery with your hand, and shoot, you will likely break the gun.}
The dangerous pressure numbers that we see in post #2's third panel are likely caused by several factors that include that copper is only 0.783 as heavy as an equal volume of lead. Thus, the same weight and general profile bullet has to be seated deeper in the case to maintain OAL. This increases pressure. Second, an essentially solid copper bullet is a significantly harder to deform material, and has likely has more bearing surface (friction) with the bore, than than a conventional lead core copper jacketed bullet. Thus, breech pressures will tend to rise more as a result of the bullet being more difficult to initially accelerate and keep moving.
Hope this info is of use .
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