ever load Barnes bullets with no data?

Discussion in 'The Ammo & Reloading Forum' started by dammitman, May 13, 2012.

  1. dammitman

    dammitman Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2009
    Messages:
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    has anyone ever wanted to load some all copper barnes bullets but doing so in a caliber that there was no data at all available for? i have bought a box of 250 grain XPB 45 caliber bullets that i want to load for 45 winchester magnum and alas no data at all for. called and emailed western powder for use of #7 and #9 as those both work and have data for "normal" bullets and they gave me "calculated" info that i will most likley try but i really want to find a load using blue dot as well or instead. being a member of loaddata.com i emailed them with my situation and they are checking into it and gonna get back to me. i have found it best to put out alot of lines to catch the most so i am asking as many folks as possible. also, i called Barnes to see what they suggest and what they told me was to reduce load data by 20% for same weight and use that for start loads and if possible be sure to run thru chronograph to see results along with other overpressure signs like normal. these bullets are quite expensive so i am hoping not to have to go thru too many load developing, but will do whats necessary to have a good safe and and usable load. any suggestions?
    Last edited: May 13, 2012
  2. steve4102

    steve4102 Former Guest

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2006
    Messages:
    2,759
    Location:
    Minnesota
    I would do what Barnes suggested and work up very slow.
    Check this out. I know it's only a computer model, but it may help you understand what that all copper bullet can do to pressures.

    250gr Nosler.
    Code:
     Cartridge          : .45 Win. Mag.
    Bullet             : .451, 250, Nosler JHP 43013
    Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.575 inch or 40.01 mm
    Barrel Length      : 10.0 inch or 254.0 mm
    Powder             : Alliant BLUE DOT
    
    Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
    incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
    CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !
    
    Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
     %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms
    
    -20.0   73    14.40   1230     840   18633   2930     86.5    1.047
    -18.0   75    14.76   1257     877   19655   3025     87.6    1.023
    -16.0   77    15.12   1284     915   20722   3119     88.5    0.999
    -14.0   79    15.48   1311     954   21834   3211     89.5    0.977
    -12.0   80    15.84   1338     993   22993   3303     90.4    0.954
    -10.0   82    16.20   1364    1033   24201   3393     91.2    0.931
    -08.0   84    16.56   1391    1074   25461   3481     92.1    0.909
    -06.0   86    16.92   1417    1115   26774   3568     92.8    0.888
    -04.0   88    17.28   1443    1156   28141   3654     93.6    0.868
    -02.0   90    17.64   1469    1198   29566   3737     94.3    0.849
    [B]+00.0   91    18.00   1495    1241   31050   3819     94.9    0.830[/B]
    +02.0   93    18.36   1521    1284   32597   3898     95.5    0.812
    +04.0   95    18.72   1546    1328   34208   3975     96.1    0.794  ! Near Maximum !
    +06.0   97    19.08   1572    1372   35886   4050     96.6    0.778  ! Near Maximum !
    +08.0   99    19.44   1597    1416   37635   4123     97.1    0.761  ! Near Maximum !
    +10.0  101    19.80   1622    1461   39458   4193     97.5    0.746  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    
    Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
    Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
    +Ba     91    18.00   1564    1357   36145   3861     98.8    0.777  ! Near Maximum !
    Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
    -Ba     91    18.00   1409    1102   26116   3637     88.2    0.897
     

    250gr Rainier.

    Code:
    Cartridge          : .45 Win. Mag.
    Bullet             : .451, 250, FP Rainier LC
    Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.575 inch or 40.01 mm
    Barrel Length      : 10.0 inch or 254.0 mm
    Powder             : Alliant BLUE DOT
    
    Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
    incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
    CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !
    
    Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
     %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms
    
    -20.0   75    14.40   1228     837   17933   2910     86.0    1.059
    -18.0   76    14.76   1255     875   18983   3005     87.1    1.031
    -16.0   78    15.12   1283     913   20080   3100     88.1    1.004
    -14.0   80    15.48   1310     953   21225   3194     89.1    0.978
    -12.0   82    15.84   1337     993   22419   3286     90.1    0.954
    -10.0   84    16.20   1364    1033   23666   3377     90.9    0.930
    -08.0   86    16.56   1391    1074   24966   3466     91.8    0.908
    -06.0   88    16.92   1418    1116   26323   3553     92.6    0.886
    -04.0   89    17.28   1444    1158   27737   3639     93.4    0.866
    -02.0   91    17.64   1471    1201   29213   3722     94.1    0.846
    [B]+00.0   93    18.00   1497    1244   30752   3804     94.8    0.827[/B]
    +02.0   95    18.36   1523    1288   32357   3883     95.4    0.808
    +04.0   97    18.72   1549    1332   34031   3960     96.0    0.791  ! Near Maximum !
    +06.0   99    19.08   1575    1377   35777   4035     96.5    0.774  ! Near Maximum !
    +08.0  101    19.44   1601    1422   37599   4107     97.0    0.757  ! Near Maximum !
    +10.0  103    19.80   1626    1468   39499   4177     97.5    0.742  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    
    Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
    Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
    +Ba     93    18.00   1567    1363   36061   3848     98.8    0.773  ! Near Maximum !
    Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
    -Ba     93    18.00   1409    1103   25607   3619     87.9    0.897
      
    Now the 250gr Barnes XPB.

    Code:
     Cartridge          : .45 Win. Mag.
    Bullet             : .451, 250, Barnes 'X' PB  45123
    Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.575 inch or 40.01 mm
    Barrel Length      : 10.0 inch or 254.0 mm
    Powder             : Alliant BLUE DOT
    
    Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
    incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
    CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !
    
    Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
     %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms
    
    -20.0  117    14.40   1420    1119   40209   2743     92.5    0.802  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    -18.0  120    14.76   1452    1171   43178   2813     93.4    0.779  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    -16.0  122    15.12   1485    1223   46371   2881     94.3    0.757  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    -14.0  125    15.48   1517    1277   49807   2946     95.0    0.735  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    -12.0  128    15.84   1549    1332   53512   3007     95.8    0.715  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    -10.0  131    16.20   1581    1388   57510   3065     96.5    0.696  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    -08.0  134    16.56   1614    1445   61832   3119     97.1    0.677  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    -06.0  137    16.92   1646    1503   66515   3169     97.6    0.659  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    -04.0  140    17.28   1678    1562   71596   3215     98.1    0.641  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    -02.0  143    17.64   1709    1622   77124   3256     98.6    0.625  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    [B]+00.0  146    18.00   1741    1683   83151   3293     99.0    0.608  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE![/B]
    +02.0  149    18.36   1773    1745   89741   3325     99.3    0.593  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    +04.0  152    18.72   1805    1808   96968   3351     99.5    0.578  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    +06.0  155    19.08   1837    1872  104920   3372     99.7    0.563  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    +08.0  157    19.44   1868    1938  113702   3388     99.9    0.549  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    +10.0  160    19.80   1900    2004  123440   3397    100.0    0.535  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    
    Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
    Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
    +Ba    146    18.00   1799    1796   97576   3159    100.0    0.577  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
    -Ba    146    18.00   1660    1529   69171   3294     94.7    0.651  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
     
  3. dammitman

    dammitman Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2009
    Messages:
    348
    wow, after looking at that, i really dont feel like messing with this at all. at least not using a somewhat expensive and hard to get parts for pistol. maybe if i ever get a barrel for a contender that shoots 45 win mag, i may give it a shot. thanks for that info.
  4. jlloyd73

    jlloyd73 New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2010
    Messages:
    1,965
    :eek::eek::eek::eek: my walnuts aren't that big.

    Not only do I look at load data.....I look it about 5 or 6 different places before I will touch a load.
  5. myfriendis410

    myfriendis410 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2011
    Messages:
    603
    Location:
    Lompoc California
    Blue Dot might not be the best choice; I'd look at 2400 or 296.
  6. dammitman

    dammitman Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2009
    Messages:
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    i agree, blue dot is out unless i hear something back from Alliant Powder with positive sounding information and data. i really dont feel good about any part of this now. i dont see the attraction or any good use of the all copper bullet at all. it does have a very nice large hollow point and i am sure if tested with good load data would make a fine damaging round but alas, the possible damage just isnt worth all the trouble.
  7. Hammerslagger

    Hammerslagger New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2009
    Messages:
    1,097
    Nice post steve4102.

    Two general, very important, but not well (widely) understood comments relative to handloading:

    alliantpowder.com/reloaders/RecipeList.aspx?gtypeid=1

    The above link will take you to Alliant's handgun loading data. Lets consider case volume and it effect on pressure. Here we compare .38 Special and 9x19 mm shooting essentially the same 125 & 124 grain projectiles. The 38 uses 4.5 Bullseye to get 914 fps driving a 0.357" projectile from a 6" barrel. Reduce the barrel to 4" and you will be lucky to get 859 fps. The pressure is likely just under 18,000 psi.

    The 9x19 mm uses 4.4 Bullseye to drive a 124 grain, 0.355" projectile out of a 4" barrel at 1059 fps, at a likely pressure of just under 32,000 psi.

    The 9x19 goes about 200 fps faster, using slightly less powder, because the the breech pressure is 1.78 trimes higher. The breech pressure is over 1 3/4 times higher because the is less free volume in the 9x19 case. About 20 years ago, Speer noted that if your bullet got shoved in 0.1" deeper on the feed stroke (using essentially this load) the pressure would rocket to over 70,000 psi. Bottom line, all other things being about equal, less free case volume increases pressure significantly.

    The other big factor relative to higher or excess pressures is how easily the bullet can get moving and keep moving. It is very important to check the neck diameter of reloaded ammo. If the neck diameter exceeds loading manual "blueprint", scrap the round. Otherwise, you risk the bullet being held in the equivalent of a machinist's collet vise when the primer fires. {0.002" oversize will prevent a .40 S&W Glock from going into battery. If you hammer the slide into battery with your hand, and shoot, you will likely break the gun.}

    The dangerous pressure numbers that we see in post #2's third panel are likely caused by several factors that include that copper is only 0.783 as heavy as an equal volume of lead. Thus, the same weight and general profile bullet has to be seated deeper in the case to maintain OAL. This increases pressure. Second, an essentially solid copper bullet is a significantly harder to deform material, and has likely has more bearing surface (friction) with the bore, than than a conventional lead core copper jacketed bullet. Thus, breech pressures will tend to rise more as a result of the bullet being more difficult to initially accelerate and keep moving.

    Hope this info is of use .
    Last edited: May 13, 2012
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