Finnish Mosin

Discussion in 'Curio & Relics Forum' started by cointoss2, Mar 4, 2003.

  1. cointoss2

    cointoss2 Guest

    obelix2
    Member
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    (5/22/01 3:13:29 pm)
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    There are so many varieties of Finnish MNs that I don't know what I have. First, the length is identical to a standard 91 MN. It takes a 1930 socket bayonet, but the old locking-ring type won't make it over the sight. Offhand, I'd have said the wood is too good to be Russian, but the stock has the standard Russian sling inlets. These have been filled with metal inserts, so all they do now is support Finnish-type swivels. Markings on the hexagonal receiver have been hammered out, but the base of the barrel has a "T" inside a triangle inside a circle. Under that is the sn, and under that "1941". To the left, just above the stock is the standard "SA" in a square.

    Winter War capture, or what?







    Bob In St Louis
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 361
    (5/22/01 7:36:29 pm)
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    You have a Russian Tula Arsenal barrel - the receiver may be some other M91 arsenal. The hexagonal ones are definately the Model 91, later models went to the rounded receiver. Judging by the 1941 date, you have a Finnish arsenal rebuild, using older M91 parts. SA is the Finnish military mark. They also used a mix of Russian stocks (normally a darker wood) or there tungue & grooved two-piece stocks of Finnish light colored wood - not sure what exactly it is, fir or something.
    Support the Dead Party, vote Harry S. Truman for Missouri Senate in 2002!

    Xracer
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    (5/22/01 9:13:35 pm)
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    Bob, you amaze me! Astras, Nagents.......if I ever find a Martian raygun, you're the guy I'll come to for an ID!

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 609
    (5/22/01 10:55:35 pm)
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    Only if it was made in the Eibar Region and THEN "beamed up"...

    obelix2
    Member
    Posts: 200
    (5/23/01 5:57:33 am)
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    I never have seen the 1930-type rounded receiver on a Finnish piece, though it stands to reason they would have captured some. I am guessing it is an original Russian (or early Soviet) stock, since if the Finns restocked it, there would have been no reason to include the swivel inlets, only to fill them in again. I was hoping the "1941" rework might mean a Winter War capture, but since the Finns re-entered the War in summer 1941, I suppose there's no way to know.

    LIKTOSHOOT
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
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    (5/23/01 9:45:35 pm)
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    Bob is correct on the markings, you can also find markings on the trigger guard(smooth by forestock and screw) also on the left side of the receiver. Nagants had two types of receivers....smooth round and hex receivers and these indicate manufacturing dating(style and years of manufacturing) It should have many small markings on the butt plate, bolt and above and or below the bolt handle, cocking piece and the rear of the bolt rail. A purple to plum colored barrel would be a "B" barrel and one of the better steels...Hows that BOB & POLISH

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
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    (5/24/01 8:27:57 am)
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    Hey, I'm still learning too! In fact I have yet to cross the Mannerheim Line and get one from the other side!

    I am NOT an "expert" on even the Russians, much less the Finns...

    But I almost owned one even before my CR, had a guy offer to trade me a M39 and a Norinco SKS as boot towards an old Pick-up I was selling, he called back and agreed to the deal when I was out of town, when I got back and called him, his wife told me he got picked up the night before for DUI, was driving suspended, and the police found "a controlled substance," so was in jail. And they took the guns he had in his trunk.

    Darn.

    Bob In St Louis
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 372
    (5/24/01 8:10:01 pm)
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    Sounds like Liktoshoot has been paying attention to his lessons. The Belgian "B" barrels are a bit rare, and bring a higher collector premium. Yes - look the guns over carefully. You can find some interesting things on some old Moisin Nagants. I picked up a quote "Chinese Type 53" in a batch of five Type 53s I ordered in the early 1980s that was a strange one. It was originally a Russian Tula Model 44 with a 1944 date, it had East German arsenal markings, and it ended up in China with a Chinese script and second serial number stamped on it.

    No Polishshooter, I ain't selling that one!
    Support the Dead Party, vote Harry S. Truman for Missouri Senate in 2002!

    SBLasher
    Member
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    (6/5/01 2:57:42 pm)
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    Hey Bob,
    I thought that barrel marking woulda been a Tikka???

    Tac401
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    (6/5/01 4:47:46 pm)
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    ezSupporter
    Re: Finnish Mosin
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    Welcome aboard SBlasher!
    The Firearms Forum Vietnam Memories Bulletin Board Contact Administrator

    Kdubya
    Moderator
    Posts: 431
    (6/5/01 5:11:28 pm)
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    Careful there, Tac -

    Unnerstan' he's a "friend" of Polishshooter's - don't know if we want to get too personal 'til we establish exactly how close of a friend he is! We get two people preaching on MN's and we'll get nothing else discussed! Won't be any room for Astras, huh, Bob
    Keep off the Ridgeline!!

    SBLasher
    Member
    Posts: 3
    (6/5/01 6:03:18 pm)
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    Nawwwwwwwwww...
    If I'm wrong , I'm wrong, always lots to learn in this realm.
    Polish has friends????
    SB....

    Alphamale
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 295
    (6/5/01 6:16:21 pm)
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    Welcome to da board SBLasher
    "Children today are tyrants. They contradict their parents, gobble their food, and tyranize their teachers."--Socrates (470-399 B.C.)

    SBLasher
    Member
    Posts: 4
    (6/5/01 6:19:52 pm)
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    Thanks guys...I think...
    I hate being the FNG

    SB

    Kdubya
    Moderator
    Posts: 433
    (6/5/01 6:27:01 pm)
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    Well, don't worry about it - tomorrow it'll be someone else's turn -

    BTW, a Big Welcome to the board!
    Keep off the Ridgeline!!

    Bob In St Louis
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 450
    (6/5/01 6:41:37 pm)
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    Welcome SB Lasher - I'll have to go back and look, but the Finnish Tikka was a couple of letters if I remember correctly.
    Support the Dead Party, vote Harry S. Truman for Missouri Senate in 2002!

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 731
    (6/5/01 9:28:18 pm)
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    Well I USED to anyway, until I stopped the payments...

    Lashers into other things besides MNs, he likes Makarovs too...another well-rounded, intelligent, and sophisticated individual to add to the quality of this board.

    Don't know how he feels about old '97s though...

    BeerboyfromTN
    Member
    Posts: 3
    (12/28/01 10:35:14 pm)
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    You have a 1941 Tikka barreled m/91 that was assembled by the Finns on a Russian receiver. These are very good guns and quite accurate.

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 2543
    (12/29/01 12:33:58 am)
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    Love the name BeerBoy! Are you in training for "BeerMan?"

    Welcome, and Lasher will be happy he got a vote!

    I bulleeve it's a Tikka too (Sounds like a children's song!)...not sure I EVER saw a Tula mark on a barrel...but Bob would know better than me on that...
    We must make war as we must; not as we would like. - Field Marshal Kitchener, 1915

    Moskovskyya
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    Posts: 29
    (12/29/01 12:39:28 am)
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    Welcome SBLasher, you and Mr. Tenn Beer are correct, this is a Tikka barreled Finn rebuild. The Tulie markings for the most part are indicated with a star, an internal arrow. The stocks get a little confusing however. The Finns on many occasions simply used the Russian stocks that were in good shape. Some say when time and material permitted, or if the russian was so damaged as to need replacement, the Finns used the fingerjointed replacement stocks, mostly of artic burch. The SA is the finish property mark. These capture, parts, rebuild rifles of the 91/30 variety appear with both hex, round, and highwall recievers. Finnland bought many german captures after WWI, as well as rifles they captured in WWII themselves, from the winter and continuation wars.

    RGRWJB
    Member
    Posts: 2
    (12/29/01 11:19:13 am)
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    ezSupporter
    Re: Finnish Mosin
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    Congrats on your find. I have always liked the Finnish m/91s, as they are accurate. If you compare the rifling inside your Finnish m/91 with that of a Russian m/91 of the same condition, you will find that the Finnish rifling is much wider.
    I always like shooting these guns with the heavy bullets like the Wolf 200 grain bullet. Have fun with it, its a great gun.

    Happy New year to one and all.

    RGR WJB
    Mosin Nagants of the World Forum
    pub55.ezboard.com/fcollec...s35625frm2

    Bob In St Louis
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
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    (12/29/01 10:02:35 pm)
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    Yeah, probably had my head up some Conchita at the Pump house when I originally wrote that. I was thinking of an early broadarrow in a triangle proof - the T in a triangle is Tikka. I need to get back up on the MN markings - I have a bunch more of the M91/30s, M91s, and M39s coming through. I currently have some Russian M44s in laminate stocks, 1944 date, that have all sorts of strange proof marks on them - besides the rearsenal box mark, there are all sorts of cyrillic letters in boxes or triangles, and a strange spiral marking. I also wonder how them dang Polaks snuck in and shoved a Polish bolt in one of them, and a wide Polish front sight in one of them.
    Crusty Cruffler of Fine Spanish Pistols - Eibar Rules!

    obelix2
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 349
    (12/30/01 4:42:09 am)
    Reply | Edit | Del that front sight is another problem
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    It won't take the earlier pattern (locking ring) of Russian bayonet. Thanks btw to everyone for all the expertise.

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 2548
    (12/30/01 11:05:58 am)
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    Ah, Bob, just like every self respecting ex-Soviet drunk KNOWS the best vodka comes from Poland, you just have to guess they'd try a bolt or two too...

    BTW, how do you know it's Polish?

    And what makes you think the BOLT is changed? Just maybe some Iron Curtain bloc 'smith just HAPPENED to have a perfectly good Polish bolt and used Russian left-over crap to build a "shooter" around it...just a thought...
    We must make war as we must; not as we would like. - Field Marshal Kitchener, 1915

    Bob In St Louis
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1576
    (12/30/01 9:38:57 pm)
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    I have three Polish M44s Dated 1952 with serial numbers AS10145, AS10656, and AS03251. All of the Russian M44s dated 1944 I have seen are a two letter prefix followed by four numbers. Low and behold, this bolt (which doesn't fit and work very well, I might add) shoved in the Russian M44 is numbered AS10255. The Polish ones are the only ones I have seen with the AS prefix followed by five numbers - also, the dies for the numbers are the same. Dang warehouse cobble-up.
    Crusty Cruffler of Fine Spanish Pistols - Eibar Rules!

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 2589
    (1/9/02 12:22:19 am)
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    Well, I know I got into trouble over at GB for saying this, BUT it should still function OK!

    First, being a rimmed cartridge, headspace is USUALLY not that big a deal...too little and the bolt won't close, and too much, you SHOULD see extruded primers and bulges/cracks near the base LONG before there are SERIOUS problems...and while I might not have been around them very much, I have NEVER heard of a Mosin blowing up due to excessive headspace, have you? To tell you the truth, I have yet to hear of one blowing PERIOD.

    Second, there is anecdotal evidence from our expedition to Archangel in 1919...the doughboys carried Mosin Nagants made by Remington and Westinghouse that the Czar had ordered but were never delivered because of the revolution. There were MANY documented complaints that the US Nagants "froze up" in the cold, and were tough or impossible to work...the doughboys solved this by "exchanging the tighter US bolts with bolts from captured Red Mosin Nagants..." And they worked fine after that...in fact, if you ever actually buy a US Mosin that somebody claims saw service with US troops in Russia back then, it just about HAS TO have a mismatched Russian bolt to be believable...

    SOOooooo....I dont think the Polish bolt should keep it from being functional...

    BUT...I have had several Polish and one or two Hungarians with what I call "tight" bolts...I don't know if they would loosen up with use and wear, and I sold them so I couldn't tell you...but any Russians I've owned seem to be "smoother..." But then again, the Russians saw LOTS of use, the Poles especially did NOT, so they should be tighter, I'd think anyway...
    We must make war as we must; not as we would like. - Field Marshal Kitchener, 1915

    Bob In St Louis
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1630
    (1/9/02 8:18:10 am)
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    I currently have that rifle torn down on my workbench giving it a makeover (as a friend of mine said - I am a cosmetic gunsmith, not a true surgeon gunsmith!). I have never refinished a laminated stock before, so this is a new experience. They actually sand down quicker than the hardwood stocks. Before I finish and reassemble, I am going to give the locking lugs on the bolt a good polish with steelwool, and see if that will make it glide a bit smoother in and out of lock up.
    Crusty Cruffler of Fine Spanish Pistols - Eibar Rules!

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 2595
    (1/9/02 11:29:10 am)
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    Hey BOB, a thought...is it stiff all the time, or when chambering a round only?

    I once had a Hungarian that was OK until you tried to chamber a round, then you just about hammer the bolt down, BUT it wasn't headspace...it was the extractor gouging the inside of the rim, it had a little almost invisible burr on the inside ot the hook...a little emery paper made it work better...and I think changing from the Russian to the Albanian Ammo helped a little too...might be slightly thinner rim, or softer brass...
    We must make war as we must; not as we would like. - Field Marshal Kitchener, 1915

    Bob In St Louis
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1633
    (1/10/02 8:15:46 am)
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    Just working the action (unloaded), when the bolt head passes into the chamber area, it is very tight - you have to give it a good tug to pull the bolt back out. It isn't catching or hanging up, it is just tight. I have given the locking lugs a few passes with the steel wool, and working the action now, it isn't quite as tight. Just going to have to polish it a pit further.

    Thought - polish a Polish bolt? Why does that sentence look strange?
    Crusty Cruffler of Fine Spanish Pistols - Eibar Rules!

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 2604
    (1/10/02 1:34:09 pm)
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    There is a joke about why they are spelled the same...


    ....because some people can't tell shit from shinola....







    I didn't say it was a GOOD joke...(hell, I still don't get it! )
    We must make war as we must; not as we would like. - Field Marshal Kitchener, 1915

    Doctor Xring
    Member
    Posts: 5
    (1/20/02 10:39:49 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: that front sight is another problem
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    A "cool" picture of a Finnish 91
    thanks to a very brave Finn
    soldier.

    ** guess I haven't figured out how to
    post a picture on here yet !! **

    where's the instructions on doing that?

    DXR

    Edited by: Doctor Xring at: 1/20/02 10:41:42 pm
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