FlintLock Musket

Discussion in 'The Ask the Pros & What's It Worth? Forum' started by TX_DRAGON, Jul 20, 2011.

  1. TX_DRAGON

    TX_DRAGON New Member

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    i have a musket i would like some help in identifying it. it has matching numbers on stock and trigger mount. it has markings of an elephant with a crown on its back with a bee in the crown and the letters D L in the wings of the bee. overall length is 67 inches, barrel is 53 inches can anyone help ?

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    Last edited: Jul 20, 2011
  2. TX_DRAGON

    TX_DRAGON New Member

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    the barrel is 53 inches not 57 sorry
  3. rhmc24

    rhmc24 Member

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    To possibly ID your piece,, please show pix of the whole gun and close ups of the mechanism and other parts.
  4. hrf

    hrf Well-Known Member

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  5. TX_DRAGON

    TX_DRAGON New Member

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    where is the elephant and crown markings from ?

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  6. rhmc24

    rhmc24 Member

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    I venture to confirm it is old, probably 1800-1850, a trade gun, not military. Looks like the wood fore end has been shortened. Normally goes out to within about 4" of muzzle. It may have been a trade gun for arctic use as in Canada. The extra large trigger guard and trigger said to facilitate use with gloves or mittens.

    The barrel on this type is usually pinned into the fore stock with cross pins, about a foot apart out to about 5 or 6" from the muzzle. When the wood is shortened the pin loops on the barrel usually filed off. You can check for evidence of that. Wood could have been removed due damage or to reduce weight, etc.
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2011
  7. hrf

    hrf Well-Known Member

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    I don't know, maybe a more elaborate mark that Laloux used on guns for the African trade? You might mail your photos to host of the littlegun site:

    http://www.littlegun.be/mise a jour et groupe de recherche/1 fiche mail.htm

    Dresse Laloux later became Georges Laloux, and some African trade flintlocks are shown here:

    http://www.littlegun.be/arme belge/artisans identifies l/a laloux georges gb.htm

    And as such, your gun may date well after the original flintlock era. G. Laloux registered the bee trademark in 1881.
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2011
  8. TX_DRAGON

    TX_DRAGON New Member

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    any idea of what the worth of this musket might be ?
  9. Jim Hauff

    Jim Hauff New Member

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    There may be a French connection - IIRC Napolean revived the 'honey bee' as a symbol of his empire - it had ancient Gaullic roots reaching back to the Merovingian dynasties that arose after the fall of the Western Roman empire to the Visigoths, et alia.
  10. TX_DRAGON

    TX_DRAGON New Member

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    i looked at the site you sent on little gun, but the bee looks diffrent .
  11. TX_DRAGON

    TX_DRAGON New Member

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    thanks to all of you for the help, i will check back later and add more photos.
  12. TX_DRAGON

    TX_DRAGON New Member

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    you said IIRC Napolean revived the honey bee as a symbol of his empire, would he have changed the look of it from the D L symbol ? because i looked at the D L symbol and they are different .
  13. jack404

    jack404 Former Guest

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    the crown over elephant ( Dutch crown , all crowns are different) with the bee is the mark of the Royal Dutch Line also known as Douwe Egberts , (he started a few brands that moved all the royal produce and got backed by the royals and grew) makers today of maccona coffee ( or licence holders ) white ox tobacco and a few other things this is a company own by the Dutch royal family , but back then very similar in nature to the Dutch east indie's company or many other colonial organisations , their own armouries trading posts ships etc.. the lock itself looks english , but hard to say from the pic these people bought by contract and trade deals so had arms from many known and unknown suppliers , it could be made to order or the days equivalent to a "hardware gun"

    Theres a good piece on these in a book called "the history and arms of colonial Europe" by boyd ( Arthur J ) and its one of the biggest mismashes of history for anyone to get into , sorry but everything i read leads me to think its mission impossible in many cases to say where a arm came from when associated with Dowe Egberts or the DRF ( Dutch Royal Family corporation)

    they still, today, are one of the most powerful families in the world , and co-convenor of the builderberg meetings every 2 years
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2011
  14. Jim K

    Jim K New Member

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    FWIW, I am thinking oriental; the DL/bee connection tends to miss the elephant, which is a common symbol in India, Thailand, and other places where it is native, and often is a symbol of royalty. There may even be a connection - a musket made in Belgium for some kingdom in the orient. A guess, of course, but I think that is all we have here at the moment.

    Jim
  15. jack404

    jack404 Former Guest

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    Jim it could be oriental

    the Dutch at the time set up factories in many countries making many things
    Guns too ..

    if theres a proofmark on the barrel that would supply more info than the house mark
  16. Jim K

    Jim K New Member

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    Hi, Jack404,

    Can you obtain a picture of the symbol used by the Dutch company (ies)? The British East India Company certainly had guns made and marked for them, so I see no reason the Dutch equivalent would not have had similar arms. Those companies were minor empires, with their huge plantations and private armies and navies to protect their property and trade routes. Sometimes, especially when royal families had heavy investments in them, the tail wagged the dog, and the "companies" set their nation's foreign policy in their areas of influence, effectively controlling European and native armies.

    Jim
  17. jack404

    jack404 Former Guest

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    i'll scan you the page that shows the house marks , i'm at my girlies place ATM so book not here but will when i get the storm mess fixed ( its been nutz here eh )

    the dutch had different marks for different ventures too , the portuguese partnerships ( Goa, india and Indonesia) had different marks but the same crown ( i think it was a Bull under the crown)

    and they did business with the french and via the belgians , the arabs , these enterprises ( sub houses) also had different marks , but i got a chart in the book that shows it and the lines from where many big outfits today came from ( British east indies company became thomas cook and a few others )
  18. jack404

    jack404 Former Guest

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    Elephant was also a symbol of the house of habsburg at one time ( leopold 1 maybe?) of hannibal crossing the alps, it was his house armours symbol in the late 1600's through to about 1720 or so when it was redone by Charles the 6th when he became Holy Roman Emperor, King of Bohemia, Croatia and Hungary, Archduke of Austria, etc., in 1711

    i'll suss it all out and post it
  19. TX_DRAGON

    TX_DRAGON New Member

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    yes there is barrel markings, but i haven't been able to figure them out, i will take a photo and post them . thanks for the help. ok here are the barrel marks i see 1 is the number 22 don't know anything abut the other 2 .they are on the left side of the barrel.hope this helps.

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    Last edited: Jul 20, 2011
  20. jack404

    jack404 Former Guest

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    PDF doc with a list of proofmarks


    http://min.us/mb7y52G

    take a look at that and the mark on the far right of the pic ..
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