Food for thought

Discussion in 'The Constitutional & RKBA Forum' started by armedandsafe, Jun 29, 2004.

  1. armedandsafe

    armedandsafe Guest

    I received this in email from one of my stringers in SoCal. Note particularly the stats on crime rates in Gore country.
    Before forwarding this I researched Alexander Tyler on the web and found several sites containing the quote attributed to him below.


    At about the time our original 13 states adopted their new constitution, in the year 1787, Alexander Tyler (a Scottish history professor at The University of Edinborough) had this to say about "The Fall of The Athenian Republic" some 2,000 years prior.

    "A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, (which is) always followed by a dictatorship."

    "The average age of the worlds greatest civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:

    From Bondage to spiritual faith
    From spiritual faith to great courage;
    From courage to liberty;
    From liberty to abundance;
    From abundance to complacency;
    From complacency to apathy;
    From apathy to dependence;
    From dependence back into bondage."

    Professor Joseph Olson of Hamline University School of Law, St. Paul, Minnesota, points out some interesting facts concerning the most recent Presidential election:
    Population of counties won by:
    Gore=127 million
    Bush=143 million
    Square miles of land won by:
    States won by:
    Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by:

    Professor Olson adds (see election map at bottom):
    "In aggregate, the map of the territory Bush won was mostly the land owned by the tax-paying citizens of this great country [those that ACTUALLY CONTRIBUTE to the resources of the nation, more than they DEPLETE].

    Gore's territory mostly encompassed those citizens living in government-owned tenements and living off government welfare...[Those that ACTUALLY DEPLETE from the resources of the Nation, more than they CONTRIBUTE]."

    Olson believes the U.S. is now somewhere between the "complacency and "apathy" phase of Professor Tyler's definition of democracy; with some 40 percent of the nation's population already having reached the "governmental dependency" phase.

    Pass this along to help everyone realize just how much is at stake in this Election Year and that apathy is the greatest danger to our freedom.

    God Bless America

    Attached Files:

    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 29, 2004
  2. 1952Sniper

    1952Sniper New Member

    Aug 22, 2002
    I'm glad to see others picking up on Alexander Tyler's work. I've been using that for some time now, and have come to the same conclusion of where we are. It's more commonly referred to as the "Cycle of Democracy".

    Interesting map. I've never seen the county-by-county breakdown. That's impressive.

  3. armedandsafe

    armedandsafe Guest

    This is the first time I've seen the county breakdown, also. That's why I posted it here. It is very interesting to see how the Cascade Mountains act as a barrier to liberals in Washington state. :D

  4. Travis

    Travis New Member

    Jun 24, 2004
    South Dakota
    I'm so glad to see the text and graphic in this thread you started. I, (for what ever it means), just had to pass this one along to others. I gave you the credit for this find. Amazing what a difference a little red and blue colors make on the map of these United States.

    One hell-ov-a find Arm. Everyone needs to read and see this.

    I suppose my post in a reply to another thread in this portion of this forum was a little to bleak to be understood for what it meant. This is a dynamic illustration of where our country is headed if people like the "B" from hell gets her way, (and people of her caliber as well).

    Thanks for opening the eyes of those who read this new thread in this section of this forum you opened.
  5. armedandsafe

    armedandsafe Guest

    I'd sure like to take credit for it, Travis, but one of my stringers in San Diego ran across it and emailed to to me for the newsletter. He received it from one of his sources.

    It is a real eye opener, isn't it.

  6. Travis

    Travis New Member

    Jun 24, 2004
    South Dakota
    I was impressed with it. I posted it on another site and got this reply back within minutes. What do you think? Give me some help here. Have you got a come-back to this rebuttle? I sure hope so because I sure like the explaination your quote had.

    From Kenmar;
    "Sorry Trav, but that article is riddled with errors. Just like Moore's film, it seems to be just another case of combining lies and truths and ending up with a distorted outcome.

    Here's what Urban Legends says about it.....


    The piece quoted above has been circulating on the Internet since shortly after the November 2000 presidential election. We haven't examined it ourselves yet, but Mike Powell of Kennewick, Washington, was kind enough to send us his analysis, which we're happy to include here.

    1. The population of the counties and square miles of area won by each Bush and Gore appear to be accurate. They are consistent with the election-result map published by USA Today on 20 November 2000.

    2. The number of states won by each candidate is wrong, but the numbers given (29 and 19) imply this piece was written before the results of the Florida and New Mexico vote-counts were determined. The final tallies were 30 states for Bush and 20 for Gore.

    3. The quote from "Alexander Tyler" is very likely fictitious. His name was actually "Lord Woodhouselee, Alexander Fraser Tytler," and he was a Scottish historian/professor who wrote several books in the late 1700s and early 1800s.

    However, there is no record of The Fall of the Athenian Republic or The Decline and Fall of the Athenian Republic in the Library of Congress, which has several other titles by Tytler.

    This quote has also been cited as being from Tytler's Universal History or from his Elements of General History, Ancient and Modern, books that do exist.

    These books seem the most likely source of the quote, as they contain extensive discussions of the political systems in historic civilizations, including Athens. Universal History was published after, and based upon, Elements of General History, which was a collection of Professor Tytler's lecture notes.

    Tytler's book, Universal history, from the creation of the world to the beginning of the eighteenth century, is available for viewing and searching on-line. The complete text was searched for each of the following phrases:
    Athenian Republic
    generous gifts
    public treasury
    loose fiscal
    200 years
    two hundred years
    spiritual faith

    In no case was text identified that was remotely similar in words or intent to the alleged Tytler quote.

    4. Professor Joseph Olson of Hamline University is not the source of any of the statistics or the text attributed to him. Professor Olson was contacted (by me) via e-mail, and he confirmed that he had no authorship or involvement in this matter. And, as Fayette Citizen editor Dave Hamrick wrote back in January 2001:

    I really enjoyed one recent message that was circulated extremely widely, at least among conservatives. It gave several interesting "facts" supposedly compiled by statisticians and political scientists about the counties across the nation that voted for George Bush and the ones that voted for Al Gore in the recent election.

    Supposedly, the people in the counties for Bush had more education, more income, ad infinitum, than the counties for Gore.

    I didn't have time to check them all out, but I was curious about one item in particular... the contention that the murder rate in the Gore counties was about a billion times higher than in the Bush counties.

    This was attributed to a Professor Joseph Olson at the Hamline University School of Law. I never heard of such a university, but went online and found it. And Prof. Olson does exist.

    "Now I'm getting somewhere," I thought.

    But in response to my e-mail, Olson said the "research" was attributed to him erroneously. He said it came from a Sheriff Jay Printz in Montana. I e-mailed Sheriff Printz, and guess what? He didn't do the research either, and didn't remember who had e-mailed it to him.

    In other words, he got the same legend e-mailed to him and passed it on to Olson without checking it out, and when Olson passed it on, someone thought it sounded better if a law professor had done the research, and so it grew.

    Who knows where it originally came from, but it's just not true.

    5. The county-by-county murder-rate comparison presented in this piece is wrong.

    According to the U.S. Department of Justice (DoJ), in the year 2000 the national murder rate was about 5.5 per 100,000 residents. Homicide data by county for 1999 and 2000 can be downloaded from the National Archive of Criminal Justice Data (NAJCD), and the counties won by Gore and Bush can be identified using the county-by-county election results made available by CNN. (The NACJD provides not only the number of reported murders for each county, but also the population for each.) The average murder rate in the counties won by Gore vs. the rate in the counties won by Bush can be determined from this data.

    By calculating the murder rate for each county and then taking the averages, we find a murder rate (defined as number of murders per 100,000 residents) of about 5.2 for the "average" Gore county and 3.3 for the average Bush county. But since people, rather than counties, commit murders, a more appropriate approach is to calculate the total number of murders in the counties won by each candidate and divide that figure by the total number of residents in those counties. This more appropriate method yields the following average murder rates in counties won by each candidate:

    Gore: 6.5
    Bush: 4.1

    There is a distinct difference between these two numbers, but it is nowhere near as large as the quoted e-mail message states (i.e., 13.2 for Gore vs. 2.1 for Bush). Note that the average of these two figures is 5.3, which, as expected, is very close to the reported national murder rate of 5.5."

    Arm... Give me a come-back, for sure.
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2004
  7. armedandsafe

    armedandsafe Guest

    Now, that is food for thought. Ron received this piece from one of his sources and he is usually pretty good about checking things out. I guess he trusted his source. The factual errors in the piece we must address. I would be willing to change the numbers in the post, as I suspect the numbers given in your rebuttal are close. The attribution is something which happens all the time. I have seen the rise and decline quote attributed to a number of different people, so didn't give that much thought. I'll be over to the storage room later today and will try to remember to pull my book of quotations.

    I'm going to send the rebuttal to Ron and see if we can run some of this to earth.


  8. 1952Sniper

    1952Sniper New Member

    Aug 22, 2002
    Well I'll be darned. If Alexander Tyler doesn't exist, then the rumor has sure fooled a lot of people. Including people like this.

    I'm going to dig into this.
  9. Travis

    Travis New Member

    Jun 24, 2004
    South Dakota
    Good point. This link you gave is an extension of what may be the truth coming out. I surely do hope so and I'm looking forward to your findings as you seek further information on the subject.

    I'm also looking forward to the information that Ron may have for you as well. This seems to be a high priority subject matter and may well turn Moore’s Bull crap in to more than worthless propaganda. We’re facing 4 more years of some president to guard our country. Let's get it all out in to the open and pick apart rhetoric that need not be there. We've got to think about how our country is to survive this war and remain in tact with as little bloodshed as possible from our loved ones.

    The next president after being voted in should be looked up to and not spit on. I don't know who he is going to be. If it's Bush he should be backed. Personally I think Senator Kerry has a lot of apologies to make to his fellow Veterans. I didn't fight face to face with the enemy. I was on a destroyer.

    If those who fought the enemy on the battlefields can forgive Senator Kerry for his short comings, then who am I not to do so also. I still haven't heard Senator Kerry ask for this forgiveness yet.

    I'm sorry but this all stems from the political side but there you are. That is the way it is.

    BTW, Mac wanted me to ask you folks in the know…
    “I'd like to know the stats of the absentee ballots from the Military overseas!”

    Just my take folks because I'm one concerned Veteran who wants to know.
  10. armedandsafe

    armedandsafe Guest

    We are getting some info on the absentee ballots. Unfortunately, it is all "Don't worry, we have it under control." There are not yet any concrete examples of how the system will be streamlined to allow the troops to cast meaningful ballots.

  11. Travis

    Travis New Member

    Jun 24, 2004
    South Dakota
    There are a lot of people out there right now waiting to hear what you and Sniper have to say about the whole subject. Not just the Absentee voters, (which,BTW is of utmost importance). The whole 9 YARDS is wanted.

    BTW, Thanks for getting on this as quick as you have and the prompt replies. I'm not a radical... I don't want to be construed in such a fashion... I'm a concerned American Patriot/Veteran.
  12. armedandsafe

    armedandsafe Guest

    Here are a few others who think Sir Alexander Fraser TYLER existed:

    Doing a google search finds some 274 references to "alexander fraser tyler." Most of those refer to his book, "The Decline and Fall of The Athenian Republic" which is not supposed to exist.

    The first link above lists a rare book offered by an antiquarian in England. It is inscribed "To the Honble. Lord Woodhouselee from his sincere friend the Editor by the hands of his brother Marie Guthrie," with ownership inscription of Alexander Fraser Tyler on title page. This fact suggests that Sir Alexander thought his name was TYLER.

    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 29, 2004
  13. armedandsafe

    armedandsafe Guest

    Doing further research on TYTLER, I find that this spelling far predates the Tyler spelling. There is a very long article on the research done by Loren Collins to be found at:

    In her article, she reaches the conclusion that the quote cannot be reliably attributed to anyone. Use of the quote goes back to at least the early 1950s and probably even farther back than that. It was not fabricated just to embellish the red and blue map.

  14. armedandsafe

    armedandsafe Guest

    If I had a few days and the perseverance of an accountant, I'd go through John Lott's book and use his county figures to research the numbers on crime.

    SoMoss? :D

    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 29, 2004
  15. Travis

    Travis New Member

    Jun 24, 2004
    South Dakota
    Only one out of four of the links worked. Sheesh. If only one out of four of my wives only worked... I'd be... PRESIDENT... or maybe not. Sooo, I'll just whip up on this here fly that's drivin me CARZY and be satisfied.

    Ok, OK, maybe I was wrong... Who knows... Maybe I'm radical and don't deserve recognition. So there.
    Hell... I give ta hell up. Youze guyz duz it. Tee Tee On My Person.
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2004
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