Forgive my ignorance...Question on the M1

Discussion in 'General Military Arms & History Forum' started by ysacres, Mar 7, 2003.

  1. ysacres

    ysacres Well-Known Member

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    EricLar
    Member
    Posts: 1
    (1/14/03 12:53:51 am)
    Reply Forgive my ignorance... Questions on the M1
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    Hello All,
    I was wondering if you guys could explain the differences to me about the various M1's. I see you talk about the M1, M1A, M1 Carbine, and the M2. What would distinguish one from another? Are they legal in California? If so, do you need to do anything special, or just go buy one? Which rifle has the full auto/semi auto switch? Reguarding the clips, are the 15 or 30 round models legal and/or available? If not, do you just have to load it one by one? What would be the difference between the .30 rounds that were issued with the rifle from the military and the ones you would buy at WalMart? Any other things I might find of interest? Thanks, I appreciate your feedback.
    -Eric

    Xracer
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3513
    (1/14/03 8:51:39 am)
    Reply Re: Forgive my ignorance... Questions on the M1
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    Hi EricLar......and welcome to TFF.

    OK.....here goes. We're basically talking about shoulder-fired weapons used in WWII and Korea.

    There was an M1 Rifle and an M1 and M2 Carbine. The M1 Rifle (also known as the Garand) was a full-sized semi-auto rifle that fired the .30-06 cartridge. It had an internal magazine. members.tripod.com/m1_garand0/

    The M1 Carbine was lighter and shorter, was also semi-auto and fired a shorter and lighter pistol cartridge, .30 Carbine. It had an external box magazine. www.rt66.com/~korteng/Sma...carbin.htm

    The M2 Carbine was a later version of the M1. It was a select-fire weapon and would fire in both semi-auto and fully automatic mode.

    I have no idea of what the laws are in California, but both the M1 Rifle and M1 Carbine are legal to own in most states, since they're only semi-automatic.

    The M2 Carbine, being fully automatic, requires a Federal Class III license.....I doubt if it's legal in CA.

    The M1A is a civilian, semi-auto version of the military M14. The M14 replaced the M1 Rifle. It was based on the M1 action but had a box magazine, select-fire (semi-auto and fully-auto), and fired the 7.62 NATO cartridge (.308 Winchester). The M1A is legal in most places, the M14 requires a Class III license. M14: world.guns.ru/assault/as15-e.htm M1A: www.springfield-armory.co...aded.shtml

    Now to the cartridges. The military load for the .30-06 was a 150 grain Full Metal Jacket (solid) bullet. Civilian (hunting) loads range from 110 grain to 220 grain bullets....and most of them are designed to mushroom on contact for hunting.

    The military load for .30 Carbine was a 110 grain Full Metal Jacket (solid) bullet. Civilian hunting loads usually are 100 to 125 grain soft-nosed bullets. Note: .30 carbine is a marginal hunting load, and many states won't allow it to be used on deer.

    Generally speaking, most semi-automatic military firearms are legal to own in most states....but California has some highly restrictive laws so you'll really have to check with CA authorities as what's legal to own there.

    Have you considered moving?

    Edited by: Xracer at: 1/14/03 9:04:46 am

    warpig883
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 5878
    (1/14/03 11:44:53 am)
    Reply
    Re: Forgive my ignorance... Questions on the M1
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    Don't forget the latest version of the M16 is the M4 carbine. It is military issue only and can fire full automatic.

    There is also an M2 BMG (Browning Machine Gun). It is a .50 caliber full automatic only available to the military or a lisenced class III type person. This gun is affectionatly known by soldiers as the Ma Duece.

    And the old grease gun was a M3 wasn't it??? It was a .45 cal full auto the military had.


    Welcome to TFF
    Ignorance is a crime in 49 states. In the other one it is bliss.

    kdub01
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 1796
    (1/14/03 1:37:36 pm)
    Reply Re: Forgive my ignorance... Questions on the M1
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    Hey - You guys are GOOD!

    The only question I saw unanswered is - yes, the ammo you can buy at WallyWorld will feed and function in the particular firearm it is chambered for, just like the military issue ammo.

    M1 (Garand) = 30-06

    M14A = .308 Win

    M1 (Carbine) = .30 Carbine

    M15 = .223 Win


    "Keep Off The Ridgeline"


    EricLar
    Member
    Posts: 2
    (1/14/03 3:45:23 pm)
    Reply Forgive my ignorance... Questions on the M1
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    I see, the M2 is what I am interested in. Basically I know where I can get one in perfect condition, I thought the gun was a M1 though. But it has the fully auto function, uses the .30 round, has four 30 round clips, and a box (1080 rounds) of military ammo from the era to match. Not sure how the person got ahold of it at the time, but they have had it for about 30 or 40 years, and has about one box of ammo thru it. But it has not been shot for at least the past 25 years, just kept in storage away from moisture. I really would like to have this gun as I'm sure its a great collectors item, but being in California kinda puts a damper on things. I got away with no smog by buying a pre-smog vehicle, maybe there is some way I can get around this... damn California.
    -Eric

    AntiqueDr
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3204
    (1/14/03 4:15:34 pm)
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    Re: Forgive my ignorance... Questions on the M1
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    If it is truly an M2, then it must have been registered in order to be in compliance with the National Firearms Act. Transfer of ownership would be a long, drawn-out and expensive process involving photgraphs, fingerprints, etc.

    If this carbine is not registered, then it is forever contraband and illegal to possess under federal law. I would imagine it would be double-ultra-illegal in California.
    We Buy Guns! 1 - 100, Antique or Modern!
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    warpig883
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 5879
    (1/14/03 4:56:18 pm)
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    Re: Forgive my ignorance... Questions on the M1
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    Is double ultra illegal anything like double secret probabtion?
    Ignorance is a crime in 49 states. In the other one it is bliss.

    Xracer
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3524
    (1/14/03 5:17:32 pm)
    Reply Re: Forgive my ignorance... Questions on the M1
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    Eric....since you live in the PRK (People's Republic of Kalifornia), I don't think that there's any way you legally own or possess an M2 Carbine.

    Furthermore (and I could be wrong here), I think that in the past there had been a grace period, during which all such "souvenir" military automatic weapons had to be registered.....anything that wasn't registered may be contraband now.....and thus illegal for anybody to own or possess.

    Guys.....am I right on this?

    Eric....have you considered moving to the United States?

    LIKTOSHOOT
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 6834
    (1/14/03 5:26:16 pm)
    Reply Re: Forgive my ignorance... Questions on the M1
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    Stumble-stumble.....crash......thud, just passing though........and he moves on------



    Tac401
    Administrator
    Posts: 6823
    (1/14/03 10:59:49 pm)
    Reply
    Re: Forgive my ignorance... Questions on the M1
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    Thanks Doc!


    Tac
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    magnum74
    Member
    Posts: 19
    (1/14/03 11:47:37 pm)
    Reply Re: Forgive my ignorance... Questions on the M1
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    Yeah. I too live in the so called "golden state"...yeah it sucks here when it comes to firearms. Yes an M-2 carbine is illegal to purchase and bring over, due to the fact that it has a selector switch from semi auto to fully auto and it has hi- capacity magazines(15 or more rounds in Cali is illegal). Oh yeah if it has a bayonet lug, well that makes it even more illegal. Bayonets cannot be sold or shipped to California as well. If you do have a M-2 carbine...you would've had to have purchased it before the ban and have it registered when the ban came into effect. So forget about buying that sweet carbine and do your best to look the other way. I know it's hard. I too look into "The Shotgun News" and have to drop my head in depression knowing I can't buy 95% of the firearms in that catalog. That's why I plan too move out of Cali in the future. I just bought a Czechoslavakian VZ-24 Mauser and I was introduced to the new gun laws here in Cali. First of all...to buy a pistol you have to take a new test and be certified by a pistol instructor. That'll cost you about $45-$50 if I'm correct. You also have to prove you live at your current address by showing them a current water and power bill. Your old BFSC cards no longer work. Then you are given an affidavit to fill out proving to the Cali government that you own a California certified gun lock or gun locker(for pistols, rifles and shotguns). You have to write your lock or locker serial number on it and the dealer sends it in to Sacramento and Sacramento verifies if the device is to their standards. If you don't have a lock or locker you then YOU HAVE TO PURCHASE the state issued gun lock which adds another $10 on top of the $20 DROS fee, price of firearm and sales tax. So there it is folks...any firearms enthusiast want to move to Cali? (I don't think so)

    Ballistic
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 87
    (1/15/03 4:00:45 am)
    Reply Re: Forgive my ignorance... Questions on the M1
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    ok 2 corrections, 223 is 223 rem not 223 win and the hi capacity mags are anything over 10 rounds!

    Xracer
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3529
    (1/15/03 8:11:42 am)
    Reply Re: Forgive my ignorance... Questions on the M1
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    Magnum......is it true that all Kalifornians have flat foreheads from beating your heads against the wall?

    CaliCollector
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 122
    (1/15/03 9:03:24 am)
    Reply
    Re: Forgive my ignorance... Questions on the M1
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    living in California, or the PRK as most call it, i have to agree with everything everyone said, short of the 15round mag limit, wich was corrected to 10 rounds... the lil M2 Carbine holds a certain appeal to me as well, but lets face it, if its in California, chances are its unregistered, and like everyone else has explained, the grace periods went bye bye awhile back... one thing that they didnt say, was get caught with a class III weapon in your possession (whether or not your the owner doesnt matter) and youre looking at 25 years in the pen!! it aint worth it, not unless one likes the idea of 3 hots and a cot, and all the sex one can handle,and then some, whether its wanted or not (sorry, crude but apt), the sad deal is, if you live in California, you get hosed and other not so nice things involving a barrel, when it comes to guns.. its just not worth it, but on the bright side, if youre in a position to move, there ARE ALOT of states where them kind of things are legal, provided you go thru the proper channels, and can afford them.... still working on getting myself out, ETA in the USA is currently unknown though , sorry guy, its just the price we pay....
    XRacer, i dunno about our foreheads being flat, but dont ask us to uncross our legs while sitting on a barstool... plop!!! that darned barrel thingy again...
    Ray in California
    "Beware the man with only one gun, chances are he KNOWS how to use it."

    Edited by: CaliCollector at: 1/15/03 9:04:59 am

    Bob In St Louis
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3625
    (1/15/03 1:41:42 pm)
    Reply Re: Forgive my ignorance... Questions on the M1
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    Ray - I love your wry sense of humour! It is sad regarding California laws, and God Speed to you all that can move to a more realistic environment.

    As to the M2 carbine- forget it in California. If it is not properly registered - forget it anywhere in the United States.

    magnum74
    Member
    Posts: 20
    (1/15/03 7:22:00 pm)
    Reply Thanks for the correction...
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    Yeah...my bad on the magazine capacity...10 or more is considered hi-cap in Cali. They do sometime sell Israeli Arms International M-1 carbines here in Cali. They're all refinished and look awesome, but they come with a 10 round mag. Someone told me that they are fixed 10 round mags as well. I'm not so sure on that comment though. But then again I wouldn't be suprised, because if they can't sell SKSs with detachable 10 round mags, what makes you think they'll sell M-1 carbines with detachable mags. Thanks again for the correction.

    EricLar
    Member
    Posts: 3
    (1/15/03 11:15:16 pm)
    Reply Re: Forgive my ignorance... Questions on the M1
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    OK, well, that shoots down that option. I can understand the reasoning with all the psychos in Cali, but it still sucks for the rest of us. I appreciate all the info you guys have provided, that was a lot easier than trying to read and decipher the written laws. Thanks again!
    -Eric

    Xracer
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3537
    (1/16/03 9:55:21 am)
    Reply Re: Forgive my ignorance... Questions on the M1
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    You're most welcome Eric. Sorry we had to rain on your parade.
  2. IBFrank

    IBFrank New Member

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    So. Ohio
    There also was an M3 carbine semi and full auto equipped with a bulky night vision sight. Very rare.
    The M3 "Grease gun" replaced the Thompson Sub-machine gun.
    M-14 replaced the M1 Garand. M-16 replaced the M-14. M1A is a semi-auto M-14 that civilians can buy.
    AR-15 is semi-auto M-16 that civis can buy.
    M1 Garand-the best ever full size battle rifle-cal. .30'06
    M1 carbine-short and handy though some say underpowered-cal. .30 carbine
    M2 carbine- semi and full auto carbine-cal .30 carbine
    M3 carbine-equipped with big bulky night vision scope-cal. .30 carbine
    M1 Thompson Sub-machine gun-semi and full auto-cal. .45 ACP (ACP=Automatic Colt Pistol used in 1911-1911A1 pistol)
    M3 "Grease gun"-semi and full auto-replaced Thompson-cal. .45 ACP
    M-14-full size battle rifle-replaced Garand-semi and full auto-cal. 7.62X51 (.308 Winchester nearly identical)
    M1A-semi auto civilian version of M-14-cal. .308 Winchester
    M-16-rifle and carbines-semi and full auto-replaced M-14-cal 5.56X45 (.223 Remington nearly identical)
    A "machine gun" shoots full size rifle type ammo. or the awesome .50 BMG (BMG=Browning Machine Gun). The smaller Browning machine gun fires .30'06.
    A "Sub-machine gun" fires pistol caliber ammo. Sub meaning less than a rifle.
    An "assault rifle" fires intermediate cal. ammo. This is, bigger than pistol ammo but not full size battle rifle ammo. ex; 7.62X39 ammo used in AK-47s which could be called .308 short (?). Assault rifles are semi AND full auto. Civilians can't buy full auto anything without a very thorough background check, buying a "tax stamp", and a govt. "anytime search" to make sure the gun is properly stored.They are also very expensive to buy and feed (they shoot LOTS of ammo very fast) and must be kept in a real safe away from thieves.
    The "assault rifles" you hear about in liberal propaganda (falsely called "network news") are NOT real assault rifles because they do not fire full auto. Citizens can't buy real Assault rifles without the above mentioned hassles. So, the term used to describe civilian owned intermediate caliber rifles is a blatant lie used by liberals to demonize any gun a civilian can buy. A rifle that holds more than 10 rd.s but is semi auto only is NOT an assault rifle.
    M2 carbines (semi and full auto) were manufactured only by Winchester and Inland (a division of General Motors' Saginaw Steering Gear). Many M1 carbines were converted to M2s by govt. arsenals and many were converted back to semi auto only after the war (but not all of them). :cool: