found me a second luger

Discussion in 'The Ask the Pros & What's It Worth? Forum' started by reinhard, Feb 2, 2011.

  1. reinhard

    reinhard Member

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    I purchased this luger a few hours ago,all I know is that it is an American eagle luger in 9mm,the serial is 28XXX,all numbers match,condition looks good to me and there are no signs of reblueing or refinish,the magazine has a wooden base with inscription "germany", I guess it can be WW1,I have no idea,the luger has a grip safety, and the barrel is an absolute sunshine with very strong rifling,I can search the net but I know there are many different types of the luger,so I want to ask the knowledgeable members ,what type of luger is this and what's the value? I posted a few pics with my german luger to compare conditions on both guns
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    Last edited: Feb 10, 2011
  2. gdmoody

    gdmoody Moderator Supporting Member

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    That is a beauty.
  3. reinhard

    reinhard Member

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    gdmoody ,I payed $1500 ,for it ,can you tell anything more about this luger?
  4. reinhard

    reinhard Member

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    [​IMG]
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2011
  5. wonderwhippet

    wonderwhippet Active Member

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    You have just purchased a 1906 American Eagle commercial Luger. In the condition shown it is worth $2500 to $3000. Congratulations on an excellent buy!
  6. reinhard

    reinhard Member

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    wonderwhippet you made my day,thank you very much ,
  7. Jim K

    Jim K New Member

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    Hi, Reinhard,

    I am sorry to say this, but I have suspicions about that Luger. First, the front sight is obviously wrong, but that is easily fixed.

    The problem is the DWM and GERMANY marks. The DWM marking is too shallow and appears to be pantographed rather than stamped. Also, it is different from pictures I have of the mark on an American Eagle Luger of the pre-WWI era. I have attached a picture of a correct DWM mark showing the depth of the stamping. It differs a bit from both yours and the original American Eagle Luger marking, but that is to be expected as stamps were replaced over the years.

    The GERMANY mark appears to be pantographed; every one I have seen was stamped with a single line stamp. The side plate number also appears to be pantographed. All in all, the gun, to me, is highly suspect. The work is good, and would probably get by at a poorly lighted gun show, but it is not right.

    I think Mauser made some 1906 type Lugers in the 1980’s with the American Eagle on them; I am in the process of checking what that eagle looked like, but thought I would send you this so you can look at the gun and check it out more closely.

    Jim

    Attached Files:

    • DWM.jpg
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    Last edited: Feb 3, 2011
  8. Danny

    Danny Member

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    Hello Reinhard,
    Nice AE friend, however I think from looking at mine & general knowledge that there is some problems to discuss.
    You can see pitts in one small on the barrel. Someone tried to remove them & covered it over with cold blue.
    The next thing is there is no straw on the trigger , on the safety & the take down lever. It could be my eyes tricking me or the way the pics turned out.
    If you look at the right side, where the mag ejector comes out , half is straw is the & the other half is cold blue. I am sorry to deliver bad news.
    Take Care Friend
    Danny





    i am still going to get you those pics of the cased 9mm flobert Francotte.:).






















    .
  9. Jim K

    Jim K New Member

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    Danny, I considered the parts color a minor point, but you are right; it seems minor, but it indicates that someone has been playing with the gun. That, combined with the other discrepancies, casts doubt on the whole gun and leads to the possibility that it is not an AE Luger at all, but a regular 1906 (or modern Mauser Luger) faked up to get more money.

    The AE Luger has been the subject of fakery for a long time, and I have seen several phonies, though they were not as good as that one, usually just commercial guns with the eagle pantographed. One was even a military P.08 with the date scrubbed and the eagle put on; it still had the military proofs and serial numbering. A very bad job, but it fooled one man to the tune of $3000.

    Jim
  10. reinhard

    reinhard Member

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    Jim,Danny thats wat it's all about, to realy know what you got in your hands
    Jim I am very anxious to see those picture's,the problem is that there are not too many A.E around here so I can't compare,Danny nothing wrong with your eyesight my friend the barrel has a small spot , there are a few more on the gun but just on the surface ,and no real pitting like you see on the older guns,somebody suggested to show the gun on a luger forum so I did ,I know that you two gents don't alway's share the same opinon,but I think I can say that you are both very knoweldgeable people whom's opinions need to be respected,as you can understand I want to find out as much as possible on this luger
    Danny I am happy you didn't forgot that,
    take care
  11. Jim K

    Jim K New Member

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    Another small but significant point. The edges of that front toggle are rounded, compared to the sharp edges of the breechblock and the rear toggle. Further, there appear to be scratches running lengthwise; machine marks on the Luger toggles run crossways. Also, the color and appearance of the toggle differ from the rest of the gun.

    Conclusions? The toggle could have been rusted or pitted and was buffed down, making the DWM marking shallow. But the other parts show no sign of anything that would cause such heavy buffing of that one part, and the marking does not look like the normal stamping that was made shallow by buffing. So my conclusion is that something else was on that toggle; that mark was removed, and the DWM scoll put on by a pantograph, probably with some help from an engraver.

    The only problem with all this is that the cost of the original gun, plus the cost of the work, would far exceed the amount the gun cost. An AE Luger in that condition should sell for far more than the sale amount. Again, this is a sign of fraud, where the sale price is deliberately set low so the buyer thinks of his "bargain" and doesn't look too closely at it.

    But how could someone get hold of a 1906 Luger, have that kind of work done, and sell it for so little? One possibility is that a collector bought the gun, found out he had been taken, and decided to sell the gun for whatever he could get.

    Still some puzzles about that gun, I think.

    Jim
  12. Danny

    Danny Member

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    I will get both the 30cal & 9mm out & take some pics this weak. Jim, the straw is what is the give away for me?
    Regards
    Danny:)
  13. redwing carson

    redwing carson Former Guest

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    The front sight is from an early Lugar carbine. I have put these on Lugars they are a real improvment. If the gun is a work over what about the Rec. with the grip safety?? I must say I have seen some later AELs that had some rough country of origin stamps that were much like this gun. I find it hard to believe this is faked gun, maybe worked on. If all that is true a good mixed parts shooter will bring from $1,200 to $1,500 so the buyer is not really hurt.


    RC
  14. reinhard

    reinhard Member

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  15. Jim K

    Jim K New Member

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    Hi, Reinhard,

    For some reason, I can't get the reply to private mail to work, so I will say thanks for the kind words and hope things work out for you.

    The pistol on the auction site looks better, but there is an anomaly in the absence of any proof marks; it should have the regular "bug" on the right side of the receiver. The absence could mean the receiver was "wiped" and the proof marks too complicated to restore. If that was done, the whole gun is suspect. The "eagle" looks too rough, also, but it is hard to tell from a photo.

    As I said, the AE is probably the most faked Luger out there (next to the ones with "Adolph Hittler" in electric pencil on the side); I would not put out big bucks for one without getting a solid "no questions asked" full return policy from the seller, with a return time long enough for a thorough inspection by an expert.

    Redwing, all the Model 1906's had grip safeties but it is not hard to rework a later frame, and Simson did exactly that for some commercial sales.

    Jim
  16. redwing carson

    redwing carson Former Guest

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    Jim K thanks did not know that. All my Lugers are military.

    RC
  17. Jim K

    Jim K New Member

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    Hi, Reinhard,

    I have been looking more at that AE Luger on the auction site and IMHO it also is a fake; I strongly suggest you not bid on it.

    First, the proof marks are missing. It would have been impossible (not improbable, impossible) for a Luger to leave the factory without being proved and marked.

    Second, the numbers on the takedown lever and sideplate are too big; they used the small size (3mm ?) for those.

    Another problem is the use of a cracked number stamp. Cracked stamps are common in that kind of manufacturing. But the assembler-fitter who would have put on those numbers was a highly skilled, well paid, and meticulous craftsman. He would have been proud of his work and of German design and manufacturing in general. Further, that gun was going to America, a young nation but one with its own tradition of precision and workmanship. And that Luger would have been a symbol of Germany and German pride. In wartime, perhaps a minor problem with a stamp could have been ignored, but in peacetime, I don't think so. Would he have not only used a cracked stamp once, but continued to use it? Were no others available? No, the factory would have had dozens of those stamps. Again, I think even to ask such questions is absurd.

    As I said before, the AE Luger is the most faked Luger, bar none. It is a highly desired collectible with a limited production, and is worth thousands of dollars. There are hundreds of thousands of guns differing only in marking and some details which can be used as the basis of a fake AE. The equipment needed to convert a common gun into a rare and valuable AE pistol is available at moderate cost to the faker.

    Basically, my advice is to treat ANY AE Luger as a fake until a close examination by an expert proves it is not; it is the reverse of our constitutional right - the gun is presumed guilty until proven innocent.

    Jim
  18. reinhard

    reinhard Member

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    thank you ,the barrel is in excellent condition so it will be a great shooter
    because of al the help I received ,I will show you a luger to drool about
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  19. Danny

    Danny Member

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    NICE, VERY NICE! WISH IT WERE MINE:(
    Danny.
  20. redwing carson

    redwing carson Former Guest

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    Jim K. Nice post on the AE. I will have to post some pics of a Bergman with stock all orginal and some other Lugers.

    RC
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