Free trade my a$$ !!!!!!!!!!

Discussion in 'The Fire For Effect and Totally Politically Incorr' started by ysacres, Mar 6, 2003.

  1. ysacres

    ysacres Well-Known Member

    Joined:
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    Wazzu WA
    shane
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 61
    (11/30/01 11:42:37 pm)
    Reply Free trade my a$$ !!!!!!!!!!
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    All this so called free trade our government has been talking about cost me my job the other week !!! I worked for a company that produced graphite electrodes for ths steel industry and others. Now they tell me that a flood of cheaper steel from china is taking over our market and putting us out of business.

    That pisses me off !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! My factory has been making graphite products for about 70 years. For a long time we were world leaders in what we do. Now I'm looking for another job along with alot of my friends.


    I think our government needs to take it's head out of it's butt and keep our jobs here in America!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


    Anyone else out there having the same trouble??

    Anyone need a good handyman??????????????????

    Bob In St Louis
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1463
    (12/1/01 9:22:59 pm)
    Reply Re: Free trade my a$$ !!!!!!!!!!
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    Welcome to the ranks of the unemployed - been out of work 8 weeks now. I am an environmental professional - businesses slow, less hazardous waste, less money for cleanups, less need for environmental consulting firms - companies start cutting personnel. Zippidy-do-dah. Lots more time to work on guns!
    Crusty Cruffler of Fine Spanish Pistols - Eibar Rules!

    shane
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 73
    (12/1/01 10:35:19 pm)
    Reply Re: Free trade my a$$ !!!!!!!!!!
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    In a way I'm glad to get some time off from my regular job but I'm worried about what is going to happen if the government doesn't make some changes in it's free trade agrement to favor the working man in this country.

    warpig883
    Moderator
    Posts: 1315
    (12/2/01 1:34:14 am)
    Reply Re: Free trade my a$$ !!!!!!!!!!
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    You are not the only one who thinks free trade and NAFTA are a load of crap.
    Know what?

    Mauser45
    Member
    Posts: 47
    (2/12/03 1:13:11 pm)
    Reply
    Re: Free trade my a$$ !!!!!!!!!!
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    I know how you people feel! I got layed off in 2001 after working for the company for over 28 years. They decided that it would be to their advantage to move to China to take advantage of the cheap labor. They built three new plants over there. We are steadily losing our industrial base which is one of the main factors that has made this country so strong!
    If you aren't making anything, then you don't have anything to sell. If you don't have anything to sell then you can't make money. Working at a retail store or Mcdonalds is not going to support our economy!

    Shizamus
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 135
    (2/13/03 1:57:37 am)
    Reply Re: Free trade my a$$ !!!!!!!!!!
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    My take on all of this is that the globalists
    infiltrated and influenced our government
    into supporting an agenda to deindustrialize
    this great country and bring it to its knees
    and to bring it to a 3rd world nation status.
    You can also thank the environ-MENTAL-ists
    for helping bring in tuff environmental
    regulations etc.. I remember big adds in the
    major papers in the 70s and 80s where the
    government would help to relocate your
    business offshore. GATT and NAFTA, more
    legislation that these traiters in washington
    did not read, yet voted on it !
    The solution is "Save America and re-elect
    no one".


    PERCEPTION IS REALITY !

    Real talk radio at : www.gcnlive.com
    www.prisonplanet.com

    Shizamus VT.

    Zigzag2
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 5560
    (2/13/03 9:23:40 am)
    Reply Re: Free trade my a$$ !!!!!!!!!!
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    yep, that stuff burns me up too.
    At a young age I had the world by the balls working for a well known farm implement company. 10+ years into a 30yr. and out plan, the place went belly-up!

    1952Sniper
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 1071
    (2/13/03 10:05:22 am)
    Reply Re: Free trade my a$$ !!!!!!!!!!
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    It is all part of the great global socialism movement to even out the playing field. Take from the rich (America), give to the poor (Asia). There are larger forces at work here, besides free trade. Our government refuses to do what is necessary to protect our economy.
    Macht kaputt, was euch kaputt macht!

    Zigzag2
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 5577
    (2/14/03 7:55:16 am)
    Reply Re: Free trade my a$$ !!!!!!!!!!
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    FREE TRADE... what an oxymoron

    IE3
    Member
    Posts: 1
    (2/14/03 9:25:51 am)
    Reply Re: Free trade my a$$ !!!!!!!!!!
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    I understand, believe me. I work in the only AMERICAN owned TV plant left (that I'm aware of). And we are only a contract manufacturer. We have gone from 2500 employees to less than 500 in the last 2 years. All due to work going to China. We weathered the storm with Mexico, but the wages are so low in RED CHINA that we can't compete. We do it better, and more efficiently, but still can't keep up.

    Example:
    our lowest wages 9.98
    Mexico avg. 3.00
    China avg. 0.54

    Who do you think wins?

    whiteclouder
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 351
    (2/14/03 10:43:18 am)
    Reply Free trade
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    IE:

    The consumer.

    Clouder..

    kdub01
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 2069
    (2/14/03 12:48:49 pm)
    Reply Re: Free trade
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    Disagree, 'Clouder -

    The consumer benefits in the short term, the producing country benefits in the long term.

    We attained 1st world status by being an importer of raw goods and exporting finished goods. We are now a 3rd world country, as we export raw materials and import finished goods.

    It's tough to say we are better off with the huge imbalance in trade. American factories and mills are shut down with gates locked and outmoded machinery rusting, the employees on the street looking for work along with everyone else in the town, while the investors and corporations run off to offshore countries, build modern, efficient factories and mills, hire cheap labor and train, pay off corrupt local and national politicos, then import the stuff here where no one has the money to pay for it because their jobs were "outsourced".

    Fortunately, I'm on retirement now and don't have to shoulder the wheel anymore to raise a family. It IS depressing to see my retirement income shrink and the costs sprial. Guess we can always go to the County Home and let the struggling tax payers (those that are left) support us in our old age.

    You may have a gov't job that will continue to provide a steady income (never heard of a gov't employee being laid off), however, there are hundreds of thousands in the private sector that are on the outside of those locked facilities looking in.
    "Keep Off The Ridgeline"


    1952Sniper
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 1088
    (2/14/03 1:55:36 pm)
    Reply Re: Free trade
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    Interesting, kdub. I didn't know that the definition of a 3rd world country depended on what you import/export.

    Having recently read some historical books about our revolution from England, it is interesting to note that we started off as purely an importer. We wore English clothes, drank English tea, bought English furniture, etc. The only thing we were able to produce here was agricultural products. In fact, one of the major factors in our freedom movement was the high tariffs from the King. The colonies were not allowed to import anything from any source other than England. Even items that were produced in, say, India (like tea) had to come through England.

    The Boston Tea Party was a result of the King deciding that ships full of tea would come directly from India to the colonies. We still had to pay British taxes, but it was supposed to reduce our costs.

    Well, during that turbulent period right before revolution, there was a movement that swept across the colonies: Buy American. People began to spin their own thread and weave their own cloth. But we did not have the talent or experience or tools to produce anything of quality. It was obvious who was wearing "American-made" clothing, due to the cheap dyes staining peoples' skin. It was a flimsy gesture, but got the point across.

    The reason I say all of this is to point out that our industries started from nothing. Everything that America produces today was started from scratch. Through those centuries of progress, our lifestyles became better and we expected better products. But with that progress came a change in working conditions. Labor Unions took hold and dramatically increased wages, as well as improving working conditions.

    This leads us to the present. The reason we cannot compete with places like China is because we hold ourselves to higher standards for our workers. We have child labor laws; they don't. We have minimum wage; they don't. We have the Occupational Safety and Health Administration; they don't. We have environmental laws; they don't. We have health insurance; they don't. We have vacation and other benefits; they don't. We have retirement plans; they don't. All of these things drive up the cost of producing our goods.

    So we are seeing a lot of major companies moving their production facilities to places like China and Mexico, and our government will not put the necessary safeguards in place, or adjust the tariffs to compensate. So how do we fight it?

    Buy American. We know we can produce the best quality goods in the world, but we sure do like saving a penny here and there. Next time you go to Wal Mart or anywhere else and start loading up your shopping cart, think about how many Americans are losing their jobs to foreign competitors. And pay attention to what you are buying. All these businesses that produce their goods overseas simply cannot stay in business if Americans won't buy them. We are the largest consumer base in the world, bar none. I would rather pay an extra 5% or 10% to know that an American will benefit, than to save some money and continue to see my country decline economically.

    But even with the job market down, I would still rather be unemployed in America than working full-time in China or Mexico.
    Macht kaputt, was euch kaputt macht!

    whiteclouder
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 352
    (2/14/03 3:58:15 pm)
    Reply Free Trade
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    Go visit or live in the 90 percent of the world that does not enjoy our way of life. I have and cannot bring myself to complain about how hard I have it. Try India, or all but a few places (4 percent) in Africa. Maybe Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal or interior China. I hear N. Korea is a nice place. How about Chile or Peru? All of these locales export.

    The US is NOT in decline, that is so much bullshit I see red (as in Liberal) when I see it. Everyone I know has a better standard of living than their parents and is so far ahead of the grandparents as to make it ludicrous to compare them.

    Trucks for transporting you around, a freaking truck. Think on that. My father raised eight of us using a vehicle like that to haul stuff and for us it's a TOY. My dad had one 30'06 rifle and a Model 12, 12 Ga. That's it. No Glocks, no Colts, no Benellis.

    And let's talk appliances. And talk and talk and talk. Give me a break. And cars, new cars. Who drives a 15 year old vehicle? NOBODY!!

    Speaking defeatism will defeat you.

    Clouder..

    1952Sniper
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 1089
    (2/14/03 4:05:21 pm)
    Reply Re: Free Trade
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    Actually, clouder, my truck is 38 years old. And it is not a toy. I play hell just trying to keep it running.

    I agree with all your other points. But the thing is, we have done well up to this point. We have reached the top of the curve, so to speak. Actions need to be taken to keep us there. Because if something doesn't happen, we will start sliding.

    Our place in the world is not guaranteed. Those other countries you mentioned are trying like hell to knock us off our perch and take it away from us. So while America is a great place to live, we can't rest on our laurels.
    Macht kaputt, was euch kaputt macht!

    kdub01
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 2079
    (2/14/03 4:34:52 pm)
    Reply Re: Free Trade
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    Don't lose sight of the bigger picture, 'Clouder -

    And I resent you labeling me a liberal with cockeyed views of the world. Your own argument is so much Toro Caca.

    Yes, this IS a much better world and country today than our parents/grandparents had - much of it to do with technology. The other is as Sniper stated, the increase of working benefits for the working man and woman. I'm far from being a union person (don't all you union guys jump on me at one time, now!), however have to agree that if the working stiff hadn't stood up and told management "enough!", we'd still see the 60 hour work weeks, child labor and suppressed paychecks. These are things that greatly improved things for the American worker.

    These other countries you mention - Heck, until the 2nd World War, most of them were still carrying spears and arrows while herding an ox cart down the road. Their way of life is greatly improving today as compared to that relative short time ago. Yeah, I spent time in a foreign country also, and saw how primitive things can be. Today, that country is more modern than ours due to being rebuilt with US Foreign Aid and US investment. Didn't take them long to realize the value of the Yankee Dollar.

    To have a meaningful discussion, it helps not to be arrogant and pompous.
    "Keep Off The Ridgeline"


    warpig883
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 6264
    (2/14/03 7:35:46 pm)
    Reply
    Re: Free Trade
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    For many of us a truck is a must have. Mine is 23 years old and I am unemployed right now. Not complaining just stating facts. I am guilty of owning a car that is only 6 years old for my wife though.

    'Clouder are you saying we are wrong for always wanting to improve our standards of living?

    I do think that many people do not appreciate how good we do have it as compared to previous generations.

    I figured you would have a fancy word for bullshit. Kdub beat ya on that one




    Ignorance is a crime in 49 states. In the other one it is bliss.




    Tailgunner1954
    Member
    Posts: 39
    (2/16/03 8:34:33 am)
    Reply Tea Party
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    "The Boston Tea Party was a result of the King deciding that ships full of tea would come directly from India to the colonies. We still had to pay British taxes, but it was supposed to reduce our costs."

    Urban Legand
    Actually the tax on tea was reduced by the King, bringing the price BELOW that of smuggled tea. The "Tea Party" was conducted by the smugglers (criminals) that had been bringing in untaxed tea, and would have lost their entire sales base to the less expensive legal import.

    A analagy today, would be if the states lowered their taxes on cigarettes than the interstate smuggling of them would no longer be profitable.


    1952Sniper
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 1099
    (2/17/03 8:54:19 am)
    Reply Re: Tea Party
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    You are correct. Your information does not contradict mine, though. We still did have to pay the King's taxes on tea, albeit reduced. The real issue was not just that the American tea smugglers would lose their business. It was that the King suddenly granted a monopoly to the East India Company. It meant that even though Colonial consumers would save money, the Colonial businessmen would lose money to English companies. The following is from odur.let.rug.nl/~usa/E/te...ston00.htm :


    Quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    In 1773, Britain's East India Company was sitting on large stocks of tea that it could not sell in England. It was on the verge of bankruptcy. In an effort to save it, the government passed the Tea Act of 1773, which gave the company the right to export its merchandise directly to the colonies without paying any of the regular taxes that were imposed on the colonial merchants, who had traditionally served as the middlemen in such transactions. With these privileges, the company could undersell American merchants and monopolize the colonial tea trade. The act proved inflammatory for several reasons. First, it angered influential colonial merchants, who feared being replaced and bankrupted by a powerful monopoly. The East India Company's decision to grant franchises to certain American merchants for the sale of their tea created further resentments among those excluded from this lucrative trade. More important, however, the Tea Act revived American passions about the issue of taxation without representation. The law provided no new tax on tea. Lord North assumed that most colonists would welcome the new law because it would reduce the price of tea to consumers by removing the middlemen. But the colonists responded by boycotting tea. Unlike earlier protests, this boycott mobilized large segments of the population. It also helped link the colonies together in a common experience of mass popular protest. Particularly important to the movement were the activities of colonial women, who were one of the principal consumers of tea and now became the leaders of the effort to the boycott.

    Various colonies made plans to prevent the East India Company from landing its cargoes in colonial ports. In ports other than Boston, agents of the company were "persuaded" to resign, and new shipments of tea were either returned to England or warehoused. In Boston, the agents refused to resign and, with the support of the royal governor, preparations were made to land incoming cargoes regardless of opposition. After failing to turn back the three ships in the harbor, local patriots led by Samuel Adams staged a spectacular drama. On the evening of December 16, 1773, three companies of fifty men each, masquerading as Mohawk Indians, passed through a tremendous crowd of spectators, went aboard the three ships, broke open the tea chests, and heaved them into the harbor.As the electrifying news of the Boston "tea party" spread, other seaports followed the example and staged similar acts of resistance of their own.

    When the Bostonians refused to pay for the property they had destroyed, George III and Lord North decided on a policy of coercion, to be applied only against Massachusetts, the socalled Coercive Acts. In these four acts of 1774, Parliament closed the port of Boston, drastically reduced the powers of selfgovernment in the colony, permitted royal officers to be trailed in other colonies or in England when accused of crimes, and provided for the quartering of troops in the colonists' barns and empty houses. The acts spraked new resistance up and down the coast.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    I was not aware that interstate smuggling of cigarettes was going on. But I will say that if I could buy smuggled cigarettes cheaper than I buy them at the store, I would. IMHO the excessive taxes on cigarettes is unfair. The soccer moms and hand-wringers have not only driven up prices by suing the crap out of the tobacco companies, but by lobbying for more and more taxes on tobacco. It is an attempt to force people to quit for economic reasons. That kind of BS has no place in today's society.


    Macht kaputt, was euch kaputt macht!

    jp58c
    Member
    Posts: 13
    (2/17/03 9:46:28 pm)
    Reply Re: Tea Party
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    SEMPER FI
    Please read my post in the general I'm all ranted out

    IE3
    Member
    Posts: 2
    (2/20/03 12:59:52 am)
    Reply Re: Tea Party
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    Clouder,
    Don't ever make the mistake of confusing me with anything liberal, unless you are comparing me with, oh maybe the skinheads. What upsets me is to walk to my production lines, and realize that just today everyone was layedoff who came to that plant after 1968. Now just where are workers going to replace those jobs? Walmart? Are you fool enough that you don't realize that it takes SOMEONE earning money to buy things? What we are migrating to is a service industry economy, one in which no new wealth is created, it is only redistributed among more and more people. It is a pyramid in which only the few get rich, and the many get poorer, and poorer. There is no way any consumer benefits from this situation. People that don't support our country really burn me up, and there is no better way to defeat a country than to kill off it's industry. Just ask WWII Japan. Also, I have been there, Nicaraugua, El Salvador, Columbia, Costa Rica, Mexico... Even there the folks realize the value in supporting their own industry. Clouder, you need to grow up and smell the coffee, our country is in great danger.We cannot survive as a service industry based economy. It all boils down to my favorite quote, "Manufacturing creates wealth, everything else consumes it." Think about it, you may change the way you see things.

    Zigzag2
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 5652
    (2/20/03 9:11:04 am)
    Reply \how right you are
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    You're right IE3, and I've seen and experienced the same thing in the maunufacturing industry.
    I'm sure everyone remembers Studebakers, Singer Sewing machines, Oliver Farm Equipment, Bendix and many more...

    All in South Bend, Indiana...

    what now?
    Prime Office space, Banking/Morgage Institutions, NEW State of the art St. Joesph County Jail, New State College...

    A fresh 2-year degree may grant you a $10.00hr. job...
    A "busting ass" production job pays a little more...

    Of course, like mentioned above there are minimun wage jobs available... when an elderly Walmart greeter passes away, or a McDonalds manager buys his own franchise.

    I see the past being a major problem, in the sense that those that has lived through the depression has learned to manage their monies... peroid!

    How does the normal working man afford a new H2 Hummer built right here in Mishawaka... Well, I suppose I could morgage my home for 1, but seriously... $70,000 and they are all over the place!

    A house next to me sold to a young couple... and it's going to take at least 3 incomes for the 2 of them to make it!

    So why Mr. Clouder, don't you enlighten us?




    ZiggedandZagged@aol.com





    whiteclouder
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 356
    (2/20/03 10:54:50 am)
    Reply Tea Party
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    Zig:
    I’m not sure I can enlighten anyone. In fact, I really don’t care to. Your post is filled with so many contradictions, if read with an open mind, it refutes itself. I think the companies you mentioned, with the possible exception of Singer, earned their demise. I’ve worked on both a Studys and Olivers, broke down because they were inferior products.

    Your contradictions:
    We are so poor we squeak yet there are H2 Hummers “...all over the place.” Someone is buying them. And where are they made?
    Nobody getting anywhere yet an employee can manage to buy a franchise from McDonalds. Sounds upward to me.
    You imply a poor young couple will not make it with their house payments. Some mortgage company sees it different and that’s what they do for a living. I paid as much for my last car as I paid for my first house. Doesn’t sound like a decline at all.

    I’ve never seen people knowing how to manage their money as being a problem. I’m probably missing something?

    It looks like most around your place are faring quite well. Last I saw, at least from the air, South Bend was far from being a ghost town.

    Kdub:
    “We are now a 3rd world country,” followed by “And I resent you labeling me a liberal with cockeyed views of the world.” And you think my view is cockeyed. That’s laughable. The ONLY superpower on the face of this planet. We sneeze and the world gets pneumonia. The US dollar is still the world standard for banking. Pilots around the globe still speak English. We are still have more immigrants than emigrants.

    And my arguments are “...so much Toro Caca.” I don’t think so. I see a steady rise in our standard of living.

    And pompous, “These other countries you mention - Heck, until the 2nd World War, most of them were still carrying spears and arrows while herding an ox cart down the road.” Spears and arrows implies hunter/gatherers, ox carts are agrarian. One does not follow the other, as it were. Bangladesh did not even exist in 1941. Is pompous maybe the same as uninformed fulmination?

    I really expected more from you, old friend.

    IE: “Are you fool enough that you don't realize...” referring to me. And again “you need to grow up...”

    You’re an insulting *********** and I won’t waste any more time on you.

    Clouder..

    PS: Let the games begin, but play by yourselves, I’m done with this one. I think zig was baiting.


    Edited by: shooter45 us at: 2/20/03 2:14:42 pm

    Zigzag2
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 5653
    (2/20/03 11:51:05 am)
    Reply Re: Tea Party
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    Quote:
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    Your contradictions:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    We are so poor we squeak yet there are H2 Hummers “...all over the place.” Someone is buying them. And where are they made?
    Nobody getting anywhere yet an employee can manage to buy a franchise from McDonalds. Sounds upward to me.
    You imply a poor young couple will not make it with their house payments. Some mortgage company sees it different and that’s what they do for a living. I paid as much for my last car as I paid for my first house. Doesn’t sound like a decline at all.

    Not contradictions at all Clouder, I'd venture to bet that the majority of those outwardly doing well, would lose it all at the drop of a hat!

    It's to bad that you are so full of yourself and blinded with arrogance that, you'll choose to no longer play with us, But choose to leave and play with yourself!

    ZiggedandZagged@aol.com





    1952Sniper
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 1115
    (2/20/03 1:38:45 pm)
    Reply Re: Tea Party
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    It's not all bad, fellas. San Antonio just landed the lucrative deal with the Nipponese to build Toyota Tundras here. The plant will be built over the next few years, and will employ about 4,000 people. These are manufacturing jobs!! Not to mention all the suppliers that will come here as well. Toyota has very high standards, and the feeling is that there is no way that these jobs will be filled by illegal immigrants. Starting pay is $15 per hour.

    In fact, we beat Arkansas, who was also vying for the plant. Bill Clinton himself was in the fray (boy, it felt good to beat him). This deal will mean tremendous growth for San Antonio in every arena you can think of.

    Jobs may be lost in the mid-west, but they pop up elsewhere. I think it all evens out in the end. Perhaps your local economies are going downhill, but the American economy is still on the rise, aside from a few bumps in the road. But it's still important to Buy American.
    Macht kaputt, was euch kaputt macht!

    IE3
    Member
    Posts: 3
    (2/20/03 8:41:10 pm)
    Reply Re: Tea Party
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    Congrats on landing the Toyota facility. It will mean much to your area. From what I'm hearing from my sources in the border area, be ready for a very large influx of Mexicans looking for work. The electronics industries alone have lost roughly 256000 jobs, all gone to China. In this country, it's on the order of 150000, also gone to China. Companies such as Philips are closing all of their plants in the Mexican border area in the next few years. Yes, some small gains are being made, but the cynical attitude exhibited by posters even here is threatening the stability, and long term viability of our economy. The main indicators in my mind are the skyrocketing consumer debt, and falling effective wages. By effective wages I mean the average wage across the board adjusted down by the difference in the quickly rising cost of living and the much slower rising wages. Another of the key indicators is the much reduced rate of consumer savings, bank savings, not bargains at the walmuck.
    Next time you are at the Walmart, look around you. Just a few short years ago, Walmart spurred it's growth with a buy local/ buy American campaign. Do you see the plethora of American flags now? Not at any of them in this area. Most of the products are not made in the US, they are Chinese. Today it was announced that the US had the largest trade imbalance in history. Read what you want into it.

    Clouder, I want to apologize. I did not intend to insult, had I, it would have been much more scathing. I think we can agree to disagree and leave it at that. I will say that the attitude you exhibited in your post really caused my blood to boil. You see, I look at it as my job to make sure all of the folks in my plant can continue to work. Right now, folks that have no other place to go are out of work. The average age of the remaining workers is 58. Callousness to their plight will not help. Maintaining that attitude will only end the jobs of the few remaining, and all of the other around the country. Just my point of view.

    AGunguy
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 3438
    (2/26/03 10:08:42 pm)
    Reply Re: Tea Party
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    Well, glad to see everyone is getting along just splendidly....now, I'll just tippy toe out of here.

    GG
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2003
  2. phil-this

    phil-this New Member

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    Messages:
    40
    If I may... Speaking to my grandfather and my wifes grandmother taught me a few things. I had many in depth conversations at a young age with my great grandparents before they died. I was 17 when my great grandmother died. I speak to a lot of older generation folks who have lived through bad times and good time sometimes worse times. This is what I get out of all of it. Take it for what it's worth.... Every time there is a change in the economy, in the "Great Depression" it was an industrial change, the entire country sees some kind of economic bad time. When I was a kid in the 80's (yes it has been that long since the 80's gentlemen), we saw a tech market change and the economy once again hit lots of family budgets. Once the economy finally started being effected by the outpouring of jobs in America, it once again hit. If you look at the last 5-6 years with all the new mobile technology being so readily available and all the fixin's at home being so easy to get, our industries have once again changed. Many jobs are becoming computerized or outsourced. Many newer jobs are going to the tech saavies. New markets like "Professional Blogger" or "Corporate Identity Professionals" are becoming the new way. All of this new crap HAS to settle in. Once again Americans are forced to adjust. We still eat steak and burgers here. Our flag is still red white and blue. Politicians are still corrupt and children still say prayers to Jesus before bed. Of course as always there are the ones who don't >:). So many people are worked up this time, though. To what end do we worry? If you look up the orginal definition of worry in the Webster's dictionary, there is a reference to a dog "Worrying" a bone. It means to wear away at something. Thats what we are good at here. Wearing down our own resolve until we give in to petty ignorance and beliefs. Wearing away at our own social developement so that we cannot even face each other in public without a little agitation. It's almost like all of the smaller places where owning a gun and knowing your neighbor are becoming more and more like Los Angeles or New York City. I live in Boise, ID and in the last 10 years I have seen this city go from a friendly place, where you could walk down to the river to fish and ask if it was good today, or see if your neighbor had any luck hunting, to a place where a bumper sticker could incite road rage between a liberal and a conservative, or where kids are hustled into the car after a family outing for fear they might be influenced by the crazy hippies. I think all we need to do to stem the flow of stupidity is to turn off both Fox News and CNBC and spend some time with our kids. For most of us to think our children will grow up either right or left of our own views has almost become akin to them growing up gay (if you are intolerant of that sort of thing). I believe that Fox News and CNBC have proven themselves completely incapable of telling the truth for what it is instead of putting some radical spin on the story. I don't ever remember my mother reading Rikki Tikki Tavi and saying something about those damn redneck gun toting idiots going out and shooting the snake. I also don't remember anything in the cat in the hat about that effin hippie cat probably smokin' something and givin out free love to those poor kids. Back then a story was a story. The free access to media has Jaded us all in a way that is not easy to recover from. It's been hard to sort fact from spin (not fiction "spin") for quite some time now. We all choose a side. Don't blame people for liking what they like. So you like strawberry, well allow me to enjoy my chocolate and I won't tell you to eat something else in return. I am not spewing peace loving hippie garbage. I am sure most of you remember a time when your could go hunting and stop at the store to get a 6 pack (of soda for the PC lovers) with your gun in holster on your hip. Now it's so disfunctional and scary out there, the cops stop you before the parking block does. It's not the liberals but the retards who would actually pull that gun out because someone looked at them funny.They make all of us gun owners look bad... ok I am off topic now I think. So that is my 2 cents. Take it for what it is worth sorry if you feel I have wasted 3.4 minutes you cannot get back. Feel free to PM me and call me stupid.
  3. phil-this

    phil-this New Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2011
    Messages:
    40
    oh and remember this, as long as there are consumer, there will be jobs somewhere. I am sorry if you lost your but my industry sucks too. I am in new construction residential plumbing. My job went from an $18.00/hr job to a $14.00/hr job. If i can get hours.
  4. mncarpenter

    mncarpenter New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2009
    Messages:
    480
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Wow talk about your old moldy thread!! It is an interesting read, though, kind of a mini history of the last 8 years, of the declining state of our economy,a look at the original Tea Party and even a reference to the housing bubble...sure am glad the freeloaders put the 'Bozo in the White House and made it all better
  5. Python

    Python Former Guest

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2011
    Messages:
    677
    Location:
    Arizona
    And to think the worst is yet to come. :eek:
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