God under attack

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by RonRdRcr, Mar 12, 2009.

  1. RonRdRcr

    RonRdRcr New Member

    May 4, 2008
    Astoria, OR

  2. 1.s.1.k

    1.s.1.k New Member

    Jan 29, 2009
    Its a real shame whats going on with religion in this county , don't worry even god carries a 1911 . so i think he's safe . :D

  3. GMFWoodchuck

    GMFWoodchuck New Member

    Oct 9, 2008
    Binghamton, NY
    I thought he carried a lightning bolt shooter. Well, whatever, god doesn't need our help. However, an attack on religion is an attack on a group of people. The people need help. Keep in mind, the religion doesn't matter. If you are a believer in a supreme being or whatever you also believe he created us and can also destroy us. He doesn't need help. The group in question is the victim.
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2009
  4. 1.s.1.k

    1.s.1.k New Member

    Jan 29, 2009
    as long as you believe in something i guss you'll b good .
    this country can use all the help it can get.
  5. chris_tessmer

    chris_tessmer New Member

    Mar 9, 2009
    "I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies."

    "Lighthouses are more helpful then churches."

    -Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father, author, and inventor

    "Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of other trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?"

    "The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity."

    "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it."

    -John Adams, U.S. President, Founding Father of the United States

    i strongly believe that "one nation under god" should be removed and that "in god we trust" should be taken off our currency.

    and those polls numbers are a little off (although it probably depends on where you look for the stats) its closer to 20% that have no religion or dont believe in a higher being. at one time most of the people thought the world was flat, that spit cleaned wounds and that sea monsters were an actual threat....the majority isnt always right. i can admit that it is possible that there is a god, can you admit that its possible that there isnt?
  6. 4EvrLearning

    4EvrLearning New Member

    Feb 27, 2009
    Left Coast

    Chris...re: your quotes above...I don't think it fair to consider them entirely representative of these men's beliefs. I'm also guessing that reading the quotes in context would shed more light on their intent in stating them.

    As for your question...my brief answer is: No, I can't say that it's possible there isn't a God....any more than I can say that it's possible that my computer, TV, car, cell phone, chair, etc., ad nauseum, came into being without someone making them.

    From the minutest intricacies of nature to the incomprehensible magnificence of the universe, I see the amazing handiwork of a Creator.
  7. chris_tessmer

    chris_tessmer New Member

    Mar 9, 2009
    you cant compare computers and other man made objects to the creation of man. it just doesnt make sense, we are nothing like the tools that we use, we are far more complex than a computer. by your logic everything must have a creator, then who created god?

    the founding fathers always believed that religion should stay in the home and personal life, it interfers with gov't thinking. for example, bush said and i quote, "im waiting on a miracle in irag." thousands of soldiers are dying because he thought god would come help him. i have nothing againsnt you beliefs i just think it should be left out of all government decisions.
  8. 4EvrLearning

    4EvrLearning New Member

    Feb 27, 2009
    Left Coast
    Yes, we are FAR more complex than a computer, and no one would expect a computer to just appear out of nothing, or evolve from something not even remotely resembling a computer, nor would someone expect to put computer components into a container, blow up the container, and then expect to see a fully functional computer land at their feet as a result of the explosion. (These are extremely simplistic examples, but I trust you get my drift.)

    As to who created God...I can only answer that by saying that because I believe He is THE Creator, and an infinite being having no beginning and no end, He therefore was not created, but rather has always existed. Admittedly, that's a concept that my finite mind has trouble grasping, just as I can't grasp the enormity of the universe that, from all appearances, is endless.

    As for religion in government, our founding fathers didn't want a State-mandated religion, or a church-led government, and they were wise. But they also opened each session of Congress with prayer, if I remember correctly, so faith definitely had a place in our beginnings.

    I can't really address your Pres. Bush quote, as I don't know the context in which he said it.

    Chris, it's not my desire to "convince" anyone to believe as I do. We all have to come to our own conclusions, based on the information available to us and the answers we find in our seeking. If all the questions of faith could be explained, then the concept of "faith" would be irrelevant.

    I do appreciate your respectfulness in these discussions, and I hope I've shown the same :)
  9. Mr. Nameless

    Mr. Nameless New Member

    Feb 21, 2009
    Coast of N.C.
    I am agnostic. Now chances are this is the first time people ont this site have heard the word. It means I believe there is a Creator, but he is to great for us to comprehend. When I tell someone this they ask if its the same as being an athiast. I believe the founding fathers were right. Many of whom believed the samething I do. Now they had the right idea seperating church and state, but if no one in the senate is of any other religion why not start with prayer. As for taking the words God off the money and out of the Pledge, if this is a democratic country then people should be allowed to vote on it. Now people say thats not fair, but if people who don't believe in god find it offensive, the they should get off their a$$e$ and vote.

  10. chris_tessmer

    chris_tessmer New Member

    Mar 9, 2009
    you put up very good points and we could go round and round forever about this. from all my studies ive never read anywhere that the founding fathers opened with prayer, i have a hard time believing that cuz of the stands that they took on keeping god out of the government but i could be wrong.

    im not out to convince anyone otherwise either, i just find religion very interesting and i try to here as many views as possible to better understand it. and you have been extremely respectful and i also thank you for that ;)
  11. 4EvrLearning

    4EvrLearning New Member

    Feb 27, 2009
    Left Coast
    okay...I had to look this up to be sure lol...I found this site re: prayer in Congress...quite informativel! You can even read today's prayer that was said in the House of Reps!

  12. Crpdeth

    Crpdeth Well-Known Member

    Apr 23, 2002
    Location location
    But, but.... It HAS to end somewhere right? I mean it can't just go on forever! And if it does end, whats on the other side?!?!?! This is driving me MAD! :eek:

  13. 4EvrLearning

    4EvrLearning New Member

    Feb 27, 2009
    Left Coast
    lol....you wouldn't be messin' with an old woman's mind, now, wouldja?? :)
  14. Big ugly

    Big ugly New Member

    Feb 27, 2009
    Knoxville Tennessee
    I am not a real religious man. I know some very good people who are. I have a real problem taking a sermon from a man driving a Lincolin or a Cadilliac. You show me a preacher man with dirty finger nails and I will show how fast I can become a follower. Hell I'd even move to his town providing theres a job for me.
  15. artabr

    artabr New Member

    IN CONGRESS, JULY 4, 1776
    The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America
    hen in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

    He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

    He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

    He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

    He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their Public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

    He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

    He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected, whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

    He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

    He has obstructed the Administration of Justice by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers.

    He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

    He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.

    He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.

    He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power.

    He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

    For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

    For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

    For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:

    For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

    For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:

    For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:

    For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies

    For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

    For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

    He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.

    He has plundered our seas, ravaged our coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

    He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.

    He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.

    He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

    In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

    Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

    We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these united Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States, that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. — And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.

    — John Hancock

    New Hampshire:
    Josiah Bartlett, William Whipple, Matthew Thornton

    John Hancock, Samuel Adams, John Adams, Robert Treat Paine, Elbridge Gerry

    Rhode Island:
    Stephen Hopkins, William Ellery

    Roger Sherman, Samuel Huntington, William Williams, Oliver Wolcott

    New York:
    William Floyd, Philip Livingston, Francis Lewis, Lewis Morris

    New Jersey:
    Richard Stockton, John Witherspoon, Francis Hopkinson, John Hart, Abraham Clark

    Robert Morris, Benjamin Rush, Benjamin Franklin, John Morton, George Clymer, James Smith, George Taylor, James Wilson, George Ross

    Caesar Rodney, George Read, Thomas McKean

    Samuel Chase, William Paca, Thomas Stone, Charles Carroll of Carrollton

    George Wythe, Richard Henry Lee, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Harrison, Thomas Nelson, Jr., Francis Lightfoot Lee, Carter Braxton

    North Carolina:
    William Hooper, Joseph Hewes, John Penn

    South Carolina:
    Edward Rutledge, Thomas Heyward, Jr., Thomas Lynch, Jr., Arthur Middleton

    Button Gwinnett, Lyman Hall, George Walton
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2009
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