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Goff 1802 Flintlock

Discussion in 'Curio & Relics Forum' started by cointoss2, Mar 4, 2003.

  1. cointoss2

    cointoss2 Guest

    atrypa
    Member
    Posts: 1
    (2/16/02 5:21:13 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del All Goff 1802 Flintlock
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    Help, please.

    My friend just inherited a pistol. We searched the Internet and couldn't find out anything about it specifically.

    But. We did find an identical pistol with the same exact markings. Same metal marks, same walnut, same brass, etc.

    The pistol is described as a 'Nock East India Company Pattern Dragoon Flintlock'...the #1802 (the year?) is prominent.

    Her gun is the exact same except where it say 'Nock', the pistol says 'Goff'.

    Why identical guns but different names?

    Could someone please direct us to a website to identify this gun and learn more about it. We assume, maybe wrongly, that Goff and Nock were gunsmiths?

    Also, a long knife was left also. The metal, etc. matches the pistol. There are 2 interchangeable blades. Could they have been issued with the pistol?

    The gun was fired once each year on Victoria Day, but neither of us have fired a gun before so we would like to just get info on the gun instead.

    Special help, please. Could this message be transferred to the right forum if this is not it. We are not sure of the meanings of some ogf the headings.


    warpig883
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 2452
    (2/16/02 5:33:45 pm)
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    atrypa

    Welcome to The Firearms Forum. This is not quite the right place to ask your question but it is 6 of 1 - 1/2 dozen of the other so we should just leave it here.

    I looked around some and cannot find anything on your pistol but my resources are very limited and my knowledge of such things needs improvement.

    There should be a bunch of people through here in a little bit who might be able to help you.

    Stick around and learn something or just tell us a story or two
    We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans... -- Bill Clinton, US President (USA Today, 11 Mar 1993, page 2a)

    Tac401
    Administrator
    Posts: 3613
    (2/16/02 5:40:21 pm)
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    ezSupporter
    Re: Goff 1802 Flintlock
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    atrypa,

    Welcome, you may want to post this in our
    "What's It Worth / Ask The Pro's" forum
    also.

    One of our experts will be along shortly to
    help you out.
    The Firearms Forum Vietnam Memories Bulletin Board Contact Administrator

    AntiqueDr
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 2049
    (2/16/02 6:06:16 pm)
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    ezSupporter
    Re: Goff 1802 Flintlock
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    Nah, leave it here.

    The reason the guns are so similar (I would hesitate to call them identical since both are largely hand-made) is because they were contracted to a specific pattern. Goff and Nock were both major gunmakers of the period, and filled contracts for military-type pieces for various entities in the British Empire. The East India Co was the largest foreign-trade operation in the world at that time, as Britain was expanding its colonization of the globe.

    Nock was especially noted for a special "screwless" lock, but I doubt it was fitted to these pistols. By the way, this type of pistol is more popular called an "East India Co pistol" or a "light-cavalry pistol," depending on the collector.

    They are more often seen and sold in the UK than in North America (you're in Canada, right?). Recent auctions have turned $900-$1000 US for decent examples with similar dates, by Goff.


    We Buy Guns! 1 - 100, Antique or Modern!
    www.apaxenterprises.com

    Xracer
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 1665
    (2/16/02 7:07:39 pm)
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    Hi atrypa, and welcome to TFF!

    polishshooter
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 2885
    (2/17/02 6:24:28 pm)
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    Yeah, welcome!

    Until about the Hall rifles circa 1812 or so, just about EVERY gun was a handmade "one-of...," and even for a long time afterwards too...

    And many are made like Doc said to a same general "pattern," but by different gunmakers, sometimes 5-3000 miles apart.

    Collecting original flint or percussion rifles, pistols and muskets is it's own industry, there ARE many fakes out there, and since there many times isn't a whole series of firearms to compare, like later, it can be tough to spot, which will affect the value of that firearm or ones like it, or at least the question of it, every time it changes hands.

    What I would do is try to get as much of the ownership history of the firearms down on paper NOW, and get previous owners to sign in affidavit form, and keep the papers with the firearm.

    Firearms last relatively forever, we are merely "temporary owners" ot "caretakers" of them, and 100 years from now it will belong to someone, either through inheritance, or sale, or both, that will probably know less about firearms in general, or this one specifically than you or we know now, so you will be doing everyone down the road a big favor to preserve not only the gun, but what history of it you can.

    This is for all other historical pieces too, but is more important for these pre-mass production guns, because for those we do have pretty good documentation, whether from the factory, dealers, or actual users.


    We must make war as we must; not as we would like. - Field Marshal Kitchener, 1915

    atrypa
    Member
    Posts: 2
    (2/18/02 4:45:25 pm)
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    Thank you for the wonderful information.

    This gun has been in my friend's family for almost 200 years. We told her Grandma the info and she let us open one of the wooden crates in the root cellar. We were hoping to find more guns but instead found a lot of strange metal objects covered with old cloth and what might be grease. Maybe some of the other crates have guns.
    Her Gram thinks the crates were put there for storage when we fought the Americans in 1812 but that we won the war before the weapons had to be used. She doesn't know why she thinks this but it somehow is just known in the family. We think her grandfather's pistol and knives were from one of the crates but there are no documents.

    polishshooter
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 2903
    (2/18/02 9:26:03 pm)
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    WOW, what a find...

    I meant the crates, also, not just the different perspective on just who "won" the War of 1812...

    YES, the US invasion of Canada went over like a lead balloon...(but we gave the Brits a bloody nose at Lundy's Lane, just MIGHT have won if the darn New York militia would have VOTED to cross the Niagara and FIGHT instead of staying on the other side and WATCHING! ( )

    But then again, maybe if you WOULD HAVE revolted then and joined us AGAINST the Brits like we thought you would at the time we invaded, you'd have "sane" gun laws, quality health care, survivable taxes, and a dollar worth more than $.65...

    The war was NOT between the US and Canada, but the US and ENGLAND...and at best it was a draw...at least until we kicked Pelhams butt at New Orleans, but then the war was already over for 3 months so it didn't count...

    Just a friendly neighborly formerly Bradour drinking joke there...(for the most part... ) I LOVE Canada, spent alot of time there, and should the Liberals ever succeed in taking over down here, I just might like to live there instead someday, if you are going to be miserable and oppressed, you might as well do it with Molson and Mist...

    (unless I can "hide" in Alaska....)

    I love International Welcomes!



    AND BTW, just maybe you should check with the OPP before you start showing it around, knowing Canadian gun laws, you are probably ALREADY a felon for just the "possession..."
    We must make war as we must; not as we would like. - Field Marshal Kitchener, 1915

    Edited by: polishshooter at: 2/18/02 9:28:49 pm

    Bob In St Louis
    *TFF Senior Staff*
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    (2/18/02 9:43:17 pm)
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    "strange metal objects"? Interesting. Sounds like they are wrapped in oil cloth. Are the objects flat, blade like, or maybe conical or cylindrical? I sure hope you don't have crates of old Parrot shells or mortar rounds ----
    Crusty Cruffler of Fine Spanish Pistols - Eibar Rules!

    warpig883
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 2491
    (2/19/02 10:00:11 am)
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    I also would love to hear more about the contents of the mystery crates
    We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans... -- Bill Clinton, US President (USA Today, 11 Mar 1993, page 2a)

    gun runner john
    *TFF Staff*
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    (2/19/02 11:06:53 am)
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    I'd be careful not to blow yourself up determining the contents of those old crates!


    atrypa
    Member
    Posts: 3
    (2/19/02 12:20:35 pm)
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    I don't think the crates could blow up. We did some research and back then the bullets didn't have gunpowder in them. We now think the metal things are tools . We surfed the Web and some look like the ones used for shaping the metal to make bullets. The gunpowder was put in the barrel after the bullet was put in. Gunpowder was probably stored separate back then so they could be rolled off ships if there was a fire.

    A good book on the War of 1812 is the one by Pierre Berton. He is Canada's most famous historian and we read a couple of his books in school. The Americans were forced back everywhere and failed in their conquest. Canada has never been in a war that we lost. The Americans have lost only 2, the War of 1812 and the Vietnam War, but I don't think you have to worry about losing another one in the next 100 years.

    Bob In St Louis
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 1873
    (2/19/02 9:20:51 pm)
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    Bullets were not cased and charged, but mortars and parrot shells had blackpowder charges in them.

    The bullet molds, strickers, ladels, etc., if that is what you have, are worth a pretty penny on the antique market too.
    Crusty Cruffler of Fine Spanish Pistols - Eibar Rules!

    polishshooter
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 2927
    (2/25/02 7:10:50 pm)
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    I repeat, America and Canada have NEVER fought a war... The War of 1812 was between the US and Great Britain over a lot of issues NOT involving the then British owned Canada...and Great Britain LOST on all if not most of them....

    The British DID push us back in our ill concieved and poorly supported quest to "Liberate" the Canadians...who decided they LIKED the oppression... But the "Invasion of Canada" was almost an Ad-Hoc "afterthought," not even a stated reason for the war. "It seemed like a good idea at the time," since we were at war ANYWAY.
    It wasn't even a main campaign theater for us, no matter what "your" history books say, sorry...if more of your anscestors would have supported and joined us instead of supported the crown, your books WOULD have been written differently...

    And it WAS a close thing, we almost pulled it off with a few soldiers and almost no logistics...

    But since we DID get most of what we went to war for, and gave the Brits a few bloody noses, in exchange for allowing them to burn DC a little (not enough, in some opinions... ) I'd have to say by any reckoning, 1812 was a US Victory....granted, NOT a resounding one...

    And as time goes on, even Vietnam is starting to look more and more like a "win" too...




    But, if the stuff in the crates are molds, go over them carefully, and see if you have one that matches the handgun. Machining was not precise back then, and each bore had a specific mold made at the same time, to fit the unique bore...if you HAVE one to make a set, the pistol is worth alot more...

    Bob, Canada never had Parrots or the like, with bagged charges, in fact, I don't know if they would have had any arty after the revolutionary era stuff, until WWI or so, and even that was mostly British stuff issued overseas...most arty pre-1812 loaded loose powder with a sort of scoop before the wadded shot was seated....

    But there COULD be powder in there, be careful, that stuff gets unstable with age...don't smoke obviously around it, but also, be careful with sparks or static electricity....

    A tiger never changes his spots.

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