Grandaddy of assault rifles

Discussion in 'Self Defense Tactics & Weapons' started by delta13soultaker, May 4, 2005.

  1. stash247

    stash247 New Member

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    Delta, on ammo, you are spot on! On body armor, however, you omit a really salient fact; regardless of protection level, none I have seen offer any head protection. Advantage goes, as it has since the origin, to the skilled operator, especially if he gets the first, unexpected, shot!
    Tactics, always, tactics! Given the advantage of superior position (I planned this ambush) a Ruger #1 in say, 7 Mag, trumps a squad of m-4's, every time, with much less logistics, since I chose my battle!
    I was trained as an 'unconventional warrior', many years ago, and seem to have never lost the mindset.
    Fidel Castro came to power against the Battista regime using leverguns, whiskey bottles, and mogas; the others had tanks, yet Castro came out on top-figger that?
    Pick your battle-fade, rapidly, from an unsatisfactory position, and re-join only on your terms.
    Pick, or create, a battle situation, that favors your ordinance, and you win.
    I never counted on tac-air, as reliable, and so, always created my situations as to be win-able, without them; ditto, the big stuff from the sp155's. Given the jobs I usually caught, and the places I had to play in, the fact that we're corresponding, tonight, supports my theory pretty well, I think.
  2. ROTCC

    ROTCC Former Guest

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    You'll get killed if the guys know what they are doing with the M4's. You'll hit one, the others will take cover, then use fire and maneuver, pin you and kill you. We aint talking ignorant barbarians, using AK's with half the range. Good riflemen with M4's will give you a VERY hard time at 500 yds. Others hit you at 100 yds only by pure luck.
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  3. delta13soultaker

    delta13soultaker New Member

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    Stash, thanks for the input. I didn't mention head protection. That's a whole other thing. That's pretty interesting that Castro came to power in such a way; I tend to wonder if his success had a lot more to do with things other than armament though, cause he has proven to be a wiley ol' bastard (nothing against ol' bastards in general, mind ya).

    Once again, I ain't trying to get knee deep in tactics and the like, I was just talking about the gun. Talking about squads, picking battles, etc is going in a direction that will end up with us rewritting stuff that some good generals already wrote in manuals I think. I'm trying to stay away from squad/small unit tactics for a couple reasons. One, it puts us on the modern battlefield, which ain't a likely place for the lever gun (as opposed to say something more applicable like a deputy, whose department still uses lever action carbines, taking down a guy with a Bushmaster or something). Two, the lone rifleman popping off at a squad on the modern battlefield I have seen a few times before. Something I learned in the last few years is that if I call for help because I am suddenly non-mission capable, help will come whether it be on wings, rotors, fired from big tubes, on tracks, or other dismounted units (wish I could say the same for some combat service/service support, but there were couple times they got it too fast/too hard to call in time to matter). The fact is that if a lone rifleman takes one squad member down from this nation's soldiers or marines or some of our allies I won't name, he had better run like hell or call a bunch of friends, I don't care if he has God's own rifle; that way he has a viable chance to fight another day. If he stays alone to take a second or third, he will be located, fixed, and a nightmare brought on him from afar.

    See ya already got ROTCC talking about support by fire and flanking. As far as "***heads" hitting by luck beyond 100 yards; not always. Take a walk along the river in central/southern Baghdad and test that out. Those "***heads", some of them, are trained in places that know what they are doing. They are men, and that is pretty much the most dangerous thing in the world no matter what cute name you give them (we just call 'em The Moodge). An AK may not be known for range or accuracy, but it has already killed more than the M4 ever will. An AK is not thought of as much by some, buy by some who have been on both ends of them, we generally think they are usually enough.
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  4. inplanotx

    inplanotx New Member

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    Gentlemen, I nor any of the staff condone some of the terminology used here. I have edited the above posts and I will expect that this will not continue. Thanks for your understanding in this matter. Please continue.
  5. delta13soultaker

    delta13soultaker New Member

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    Yessir. Will do.
  6. stash247

    stash247 New Member

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    Delta, the AK is certainly a competent arm, somewhat range and accuracy challenged; many of it's operators are, without a doubt, highly skilled. It's hard to find anybody, who, having made a living with it, even for a short time, who will speak ill of it!
    I, personally, like simple, reliable things; the AK qualifies, as reliable. The '94 Win touches BOTH bases. The '74 Sharps has the advantage of power, and range, in most of the calibers it was ever chambered in.
    Would I go to war with the Sharps? Not on your life! Not because it is lacking, because it is not, simply because there are better tools to do the job with.
    Ronnie Barrett makes some large caliber, long range rifles, that yank the rat out out of his hole, so to speak, as well, or better, than the Sharps could ever do; they use easily available, .50 BMG ammo.
    But, given an impromtu, domestic situation, a large pistol caliber, in a short lever gun, would rate far higher, for me, than most of the current, high tech, weapons, because it will work!
    I think this is where you started with this thread, and I totally agree; the day of the lever gun is not yet done!

    The Brits chose to make the FAL a semi-only weapon, as they issued it, in deference to accurate (effective) fire; the US did the same with the M-14. No volume of misses will count as high as one solid hit; thus, my love for reliable, accurate, mechanical repeaters.
    I think you could use a Win or Marlin lever gun, given ammo availability, in any theater, to good effect; the choice of caliber, based on need. If I had not given up the pursuit, Iraq would seem a good place to try out the premise!
  7. delta13soultaker

    delta13soultaker New Member

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    Yeah. That's pretty much my stance on the lever gun: It still works.

    A lot of people mention, here and just about anywhere else this stuff comes up, the advantages of a long gun when available; usually a shotgun. I think that when over-penatration is not a factor or perhaps a very low risk (there are some places/areas where the structures are not likely to be pierced by any small arms fire) the lever gun is about on par with the scattergun. It hits harder than the pistol, has greater range, and has ease of operation. The shotgun delivers greater trauma in much less time, but at the loss of precise shot placement beyond a few meters. Kind of a trade off I guess. Put shortly, if no shotgun is available, don't overlook the lever gun.
  8. LIKTOSHOOT

    LIKTOSHOOT Advanced Senior Member

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    Now you`ve done again.......mentioned the ineffective shotgun. If your right handed, hit yourself in the forehead with your left......DOH!


    LTS
  9. delta13soultaker

    delta13soultaker New Member

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    Shucks I ain't gonna call the shotgun ineffective. I keep one around where I am. Just saying there are other good weapons.
  10. LIKTOSHOOT

    LIKTOSHOOT Advanced Senior Member

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    A few meters??? You must try an FN slug gun or one of the others.....in 20 or 12, they will match any pistol caliber rifle in range with more power. And be it pump or semi.......easier to load on the move than ANY lever gun. Just some fodder.



    LTS
  11. stash247

    stash247 New Member

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    What you said, LTS; let's go play, at 100, with my shotgun, Hastings Barrel, like that!!!
    Minute of deer is minute of soldier, where I'm from, and, an ounce of lead, vest or not, is gonna change attitudes, almost at once!
    Lot'sa folks, out east of me, a bit, have to make meat with a shotgun, because of 'urban sprawl' and, do it very well, with slugs, or buck. Fact is, deer are more aware, and quicker, than humans, and, harder, by the pound, to kill!
    Anybody that tells me a shotgun is not a viable weapons system has spent WAY too much time in the office!
    I won't deny that there are better systems, but, this one ain't dead, by a long shot (pun intended).
    The Fal, as Saieve designed it, was a bit heavy, but approximated the 6.8x53 round the SF Guys now are trying to get in a M-16 lower; only after the western world Bastardised it into a 7.62x51, did it become a semi, to most forces, for controllability. Same story, with the M-14.
    Bottom line, and you can ask Ronnie Barrett, is "accurate first round delivery"
    Shotgun, or sniper rifle, the rule is the same: If the first round was a 'counter', the rest don't count. Range/energy/ all the rest, are only an issue, when the shooter fails in his first responsibility, which is, reliable connection, with the target.
    Given a M 94 Win, factory ammo, no other options, I would not feel "Outgunned" . Could I change but one thing, it would be caliber, without feeling any loss, except range, over ridden by power. Terry
  12. delta13soultaker

    delta13soultaker New Member

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    I'm feeling like I shoulda been a bit more specific. With buckshot/shot, precise shot placement is only possible at really close range.

    Now slugs, yeah with the right weapon they are as accurate as a pistol cal carbine with much more power, but once you have a shotgun with a rifled barrel and rifle sights that allow that level of accuracy...well isn't that um..uh...basically a rifle shooting shotgun slugs?? I'll hold the shotgun to it's niches of CQB/hunting (shotshells) and doorbuster/deerslayer (slugs) and riot control (less than lethal) while keeping in mind that it is the most versatile practical gun ever mass produced. But it ain't one I'd intentionally shove into a rifle role (if I can help it) for a few reasons. First, for shotgun ammo weight/volume vs say, .45 Colt, it is a 3:1 ratio, favoring .45. Second, lobbing 1 ounce of lead at long range for the blast/recoil is not a fair trade off IMO when 250 grains-ish of the soft metal is ample medication (caveat for CQB distances or when over-penetration is a consideration). Third, a rifle/carbine is superior at long range, just like a shotgun reigns king at close range, even if they can all be pressed into service vice versa (hell, there's people that shoot 55 gal drums at several hundred meters with Bisleys, but that don't make it practical).

    So, I pose this question, just for conversation sake: with your best slug gun/ammo combo, what is the furthest range you are comfortable with placing 46+ of 50 on a 8x8 inch block from unspecified positions (off hand or supported depending on set cover) inside of 5 minutes? That's 50 shots on a 8x8 with 6 seconds per shot under daylight field conditions. Way back when, this humbled me with some pretty fine shooting iron.
  13. LIKTOSHOOT

    LIKTOSHOOT Advanced Senior Member

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    Tunnel vision will cost you sooner than later. A slug barreled shotgun is effective over 100 yards, but try it with shot and it improves close range objectives. But that was not my point. Several makers, FN-HK-AA and others have systems that fill the entire gamit and make the shotgun a forma ble weapon system from close or afar. A suggestion, look for an AA (SPAS-12) with the entire choke system, for example. Then find someone who has one. Not the best example, because it`s complicated to dress down and operate for some AND heavy, but it proves the point well.


    LTS


    gotta go sleep some more, 16`s this week.......THUD!!!!!!!!!
  14. delta13soultaker

    delta13soultaker New Member

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    Okay. The SPAS-12 has been around for a while. The advantages of select fire on a rifle don't seem to transfer over to a shotgun (go figure) and that weapon is select fire in its own way. Our military is still using the plain old pump action...basically because it is so simple it actually works. The SPAS-12, if I recall, lets a shooter fire semi-auto, but also manually cycle specialized ammo that won't self-cycle the gas piston. Neat trick. Complicated. There are some NATO armsrooms that have them in the cages, maybe a few police stations, but I think that's about it on the professional side. A pump just pumps out everything you feed it the same. Simple. But whatever makes you warm 'n fuzzy.

    If you're cool with using a shotgun at long range, then I'm not one to say you shouldn't. I'd prefer a rifle, but that's me. My experience training with the pump action is that they can do anything that there has been ammo produced to do and the fact that people are making semi-autos with pump capability kinda reinforces that to me, but there's always another way to skin a cat, right. Any shotgun is as formidable as the man weilding it, like any weapon may be, I reckon.

    Good luck on them double shifts (take more breaks I say).

    PS. I might be out of town for a few months. Won't know until I've showed up packed and ready in the morning. Seems me and lots of fellows' orders are in limbo between cyberspace and somebody's desk and we won't get an answer if we're still in or deferred until the duty day kicks off. So if I don't reply until October, I made it to my schools on time; if I reply in a couple days, somebody has squandered more tax money (again) than I care to think about.
  15. LIKTOSHOOT

    LIKTOSHOOT Advanced Senior Member

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    It was not my point to rally the scattergun, only to say......it has come a long way and many are short sighted in thinking of it.........beyond pumkinball slugs and full chokes in 30" barrels. Myself, a carbine (short barreled) FAL (DSA) works for me. Light recoil-range,compact AND .308


    Don`t get me rused with the mousegun, if it were about wounding.....we`d be using .22 rimfire.



    LTS

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