Gun rights and PTSD?

Discussion in 'VMBB General Discussion' started by Jump Boot, Jan 22, 2009.

  1. Jump Boot

    Jump Boot New Member

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    Long time wondering,but is it illegal for a veteran with 70% disability for PTSD to buy and own guns?Could one loose his benefits?
  2. RunningOnMT

    RunningOnMT New Member

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    Currently there is no law preventing it but I fear it's coming. As long as they have not been hospitalized against their will or ajudicated (In a court of law) of mental instability. The VA has certain descriptions or lists of symptoms or severity with different levels of disability. At 70% the list includes "uncontrollable impulses".

    The problem we have here is that the majority of people do not understand mental/emotional problems and you will find that even many gun owners believe that those with PTSD are a risk with firearms. The truth is we are a society full of people with emotional disorders (many undiagnosed) and the vast majority of those afflicated would pose no threat to anyone. Even those prone to "flying off the handle", which sometimes is the case with PTSD, are still aware of right and wrong and have limits of what they might do in such a fit of anger. Others, especially those who have ever had an altercation with someone that prompted them to take a swing, should be careful before throwing stones lest they break their own windows. Because someone has received a diagnosis of PTSD, does not make them a socio-path. People automatically associate depression with suicide and a short fuse with homicidal violence.

    It's not likely that someone would lose his benefits because of owning firearms as long as the clinical notes supported the diagnosis but I would definately fear gun hating politicians and a misguided public trying to prevent them from gun ownership.

    It's an irony that one who has suffered the effects of PTSD as a result of fighting for his country might lose one of the basic rights guaranteed us in our constitution.
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2009
  3. Jay

    Jay New Member

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    Here's the wording from question 11(f) of the current form 4473

    As long as you can answer no to this question, you're good to go.



    ref... http://www.titleii.com/pdf/4473.pdf
  4. AL MOUNT

    AL MOUNT New Member

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    Thank You Jesus......:D .. & Jay :D
  5. Jump Boot

    Jump Boot New Member

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    Thank you men for giving me a little piece of mind.Since Vietnam,I have owned rifles,shotguns and handguns for hunting and target and of course,I have a great respect for our old 1911 platform.Since our gun owner rights are on the chopping block,it gave me cause for concern because of being diagnosed with PTSD.I was hoping that I wasn't doing anything illegal by purchasing and owning guns.The VA,I understand ,will cut your benefits if a felony has been committed.Being close to retirement here in Feburary,Social Security and my VA benifits is all my family and I will have to survive on.So,you can see my concern.
    Welcome home brothers and God bless.
    I was there with the 173rd Airborne Brigade , my first tour, and the 82nd.Airborne Div. on my second tour.66 through 68.
  6. RunningOnMT

    RunningOnMT New Member

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    Welcome home Jumpboot. You aren't doing anything illegal. If anything were to change you'd know about it if you should try to purchase a new firearm; they'd take away that right before they'd do anything else...but there have been no new laws regarding this yet. Even then there's a good chance you could still use the firearms you already own. You wont lose your benefits. Where in Ohio are you?
  7. Jump Boot

    Jump Boot New Member

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    RunningOnMt, thank you. I live about 20 miles outside of Youngstown in the country.
  8. pickenup

    pickenup Active Member

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    Hold on a minute there guys. Not to be the bearer of bad news, Jump Boot, but I'm not going to be so quick to say that you have nothing to worry about. It may be NOTHING.......but.

    In January 2008 Bush signed into law "HR 2640" otherwise known as "the Veterans Disarmament Act"

    Supported by the regular anti-gun legislators like Carolyn McCarthy, Charles Schumer, Patrick Leahy, the Brady bunch, and a host of others, it may interest you to know that the NRA ALSO SUPPORTED THIS BILL. Opposition came from most all veterans organizations, as well as the REAL pro-gun advocate groups.

    How might this act affect you?

    "Two legal terms are radically redefined in the Veterans Disarmament Act to carry out this vicious attack on veterans’ gun rights.

    One term relates to who is classified a "mental defective." Forty years ago that term meant one was adjudicated "not guilty" in a court of law by reason of insanity. But under the Veterans Disarmament Act, "mental defective" has been stretched to include anyone whom a psychiatrist determines might be a tiny danger to self or others.

    The second term is "adjudicate." In the past, one could only lose one's gun rights through an adjudication by a judge, magistrate or court -- meaning conviction after a trial. Adjudication could only occur in a court with all the protections of due process, including the right to face one's accuser. Now, adjudication in HR 2640 would include a finding by "a court, commission, committee or other authorized person""

    Do you see that.......or other authorized person???
    My question is.....Just WHO is authorized?

    Before it was passed, it was said that this act would place any veteran who has ever been diagnosed with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) on the federal gun ban list.

    Do I have any examples that this has come to pass?
    NO
    Is it a tool that can be used by the BATF any time they want?
    I BELIEVE.....YES

    Have you bought a firearm recently?
  9. Jay

    Jay New Member

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    I work for the VA in Health Information. One medical provider (MD, NP, PA) cannot declare (without consenting opinions from other providers) that any person presents a danger to him/her self or others. Tiny doesn't enter into it. A person is either a threat, or not. A person may be competent or not for medical decisions, and a person may be competent or not for activities of daily living.

    There is no documentation in place in the VA system (that I'm aware of) to question any Vet about firearms, without the Vet having previously admitted to thoughts of suicide, or harming themselves, or others

    I am service connected for PTSD, and have bought 4 handguns, and two rifles, and one shotgun during 2008, without issue. All purchased through a FFL holding dealer.

    Could 2640 be used against us? Probably, but there's no evidence of it to date..... as has been posted. What also needs to be brought up is that while I'm not happy with all of it, it does provide for appeal of a decision that adversely affects a Veteran's right to purchase a firearm..... and could restore that right... which did not exist until 2640 was signed into law.

    Just my two cents.......
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2009
  10. Jump Boot

    Jump Boot New Member

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    Jay,
    Pickenup does make an accurate statement if you read this: http://www.officialwire.com/main.php?action=recent&rid=21430

    I have been losing sleep over this HR 2640 bill and have spent many hours on the computer trying to find out all about it.My findings are confusing to say the least.All I can find is information about the bill and the Veterans disarmament Act prior to 2008.I can't see where there is anything new concerning it.If you do a search as I have done,the wording and the understanding is different from one read to another.But so much that I can get out of it is pretty much cut and dried," anyone who is diagnosed with having PTSD" is banned from buying or owning guns.Also,from what I have read,just because you passed the background check does not mean that you cannot be charged with a felony.The words ( tiny) bit a harm to himself and others,does enter into the meanings for losing ones gun rights.
    Anyone with PTSD,that is pretty much anyone who has put his life on the line in the face of combat for his country and for the freedom of other in far distant lands, is now marked a bad guy.How sad.Oh and another thing that I have read is that if we defend ourselves in our homes against a bad guy then we are liable and the BG has more rights then we do.
    It is also interesting to note that many LEO's and First Responders would also lose their gun rights also since most of them are war veterans also.That is food for thought huh?Again,very sad.
    If there is any new information out there on the HR 2640 Bill and /or the Veterans Disarmament Act,I would surely like to read it.But most of all,I would like to understand it as well.
    What is your thoughts on filling out the form for a background check so as to buy a gun and passing? Does that mean that your name isn't in the system yet or does it just mean that your records are just sitting on the basement floor somewhere collecting dust until they get to them?
    Fire back at me buddy,anybody,this is important to all of us.
    Jump Boot
  11. Jay

    Jay New Member

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    Here is the full text of HR 2640 from a Gov't legislative tracking site...
    http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h110-2640

    The section outlined below..... as I read it, says you have to be adjudicated or committed to be adversely affected by this bill. Go to the link above, and select the entire text, and search for PTSD or Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. I did those searches and found nothing. That acronym, and terminology do not exist in the text. As I said, I'm not arguing, or advocating that this law is excellent in all respects, but thus far, I fail to see it as a blanket threat to all veterans. The emboldened text says that a finding of disability does not, by itself equate to adjudication or classification as a mental defective. Could wording and situations be twisted? Sure, the gov't has been doing that for many years.



    STANDARD FOR ADJUDICATIONS AND COMMITMENTS RELATED
    TO MENTAL HEALTH.—
    (1) IN GENERAL.—No department or agency of the Federal
    Government may provide to the Attorney General any record
    of an adjudication related to the mental health of a person
    or any commitment of a person to a mental institution if—
    (A) the adjudication or commitment, respectively, has
    been set aside or expunged, or the person has otherwise
    been fully released or discharged from all mandatory treatment,
    supervision, or monitoring;
    (B) the person has been found by a court, board,
    commission, or other lawful authority to no longer suffer
    from the mental health condition that was the basis of
    the adjudication or commitment, respectively, or has otherwise
    been found to be rehabilitated through any procedure
    available under law; or
    (C) the adjudication or commitment, respectively, is
    based solely on a medical finding of disability, without
    an opportunity for a hearing by a court, board, commission,
    or other lawful authority, and the person has not been
    adjudicated as a mental defective consistent with section
    922(g)(4) of title 18, United States Code, except that
    nothing in this section or any other provision of law shall
    prevent a Federal department or agency from providing
    to the Attorney General any record demonstrating that
    a person was adjudicated to be not guilty by reason of
    insanity, or based on lack of mental responsibility, or found
    incompetent to stand trial, in any criminal case or under
    the Uniform Code of Military Justice.
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2009
  12. Jump Boot

    Jump Boot New Member

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    Jay,
    You sir,are a good man. I can not begin to tell you how much I(we) appreciate your efforts to help make the issue of the HR2640 Bill clearer to us.Thank you for providing the link to the updated version of the Bill.I too didn't read anything in it that would prove harmful to the veterans with PTSD.I was all over the site but came up empty handed with anything discriminating the veterans.
    Jump Boot
  13. SixTGunr

    SixTGunr New Member

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    You can always count on Marine Recon ...;)

    Semper Fi Jay

    [​IMG]

    six
  14. Jump Boot

    Jump Boot New Member

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    Of that,I am sure. I'd proudly share the same fox hole with you guys.
  15. Jay

    Jay New Member

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    Semper Fi gents..... oooooh rah , six ...

    my door is always open for you ..
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2009
  16. texasmonkey

    texasmonkey New Member

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    since it is now 2012 and I have notheard anything about new laws regaurding the 2nd amendment, has anybody else?
  17. brianitos

    brianitos New Member

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    I have wondered for sometime about this. I am retired from a career spanning 3 decades in law enforcement. I was forced medically retired after being injured during an arrest. After failed surgery, my age etc... See Ya, they save money. Anyhow, I was sent to the Workers Comp docs and one was pysch due to my being injured on the job and forced retirement. I went to apply and process my CCW through my department and was denied. Reason treatment for mental illness diagnosis, PTSD, I laughed cause nobody has told me a thing. I was told to wait 10 years. I have been retired 6 years. I worked for a very large department. My son has PTSD after serving numerous times in both theaters of war and finally himself getting caught by an IED suffering numerous injuries.
    Open to all input.
  18. berto64

    berto64 Active Member

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    Hi Gunner, good to see you Again.

    Jay I am diagnosed with PTSD from 3 tours in Vietnam and have held a CCW in AZ and now in Idaho. Have bought firearms in three states with it because my illness has not been documented in my background checks.

    I sympathize for your situation. Do you think it would help if you applied at a different department or the Sheriff's Office. Somewhere that is not familiar with your history? Good Luck.
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