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H. Burgsmuller & Sohne Kreifnsfn

Discussion in 'The Ask the Pros & What's It Worth? Forum' started by richardoutwest, Jun 9, 2012.

  1. richardoutwest

    richardoutwest New Member

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    Picked up this old H. Burgsmuller & Sohne topped with a Hensoldt-Wetzlar 2 3/4x scope I think is an 8mm, however it is not stamped in the barrel. Tried to research it but coming up empty. I have only found it is from Germany around the turn of the century. The action looks Mauser with a hexagon barrel for about 10 inches from action then goes round. The sight rail is like the Dan Wesson pistols. It also has two triggers. Anyone know anything about these or what it may be worth?

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  2. DBMJR1

    DBMJR1 New Member

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    The two triggers are 'set triggers'. If'n you're in the field, you just use the one. If you are shooting off a bench, you set the 'trigger' with the pre-travel trigger, then the trigger will break like a target trigger.
  3. jack404

    jack404 Former Guest

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    Sir i know enough about these to say you need a expert on european custom rifles

    some can be worth a couple thousand some in the ten's ...

    and you need a real expert to say what

    in the USA for these i use a company called

    James D. Julia 207-453-7125 they are a auction house , so be careful always ..

    it costs nothing to chat over the phone , just say your looking to see what yours maybe worth at sale, that'll give you a decent idea unless someone here knows these well
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2012
  4. Hammerslagger

    Hammerslagger New Member

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    "richardoutwest";

    "jack404" gives excellent advice. Let me give a little more.

    DO NOT FIRE THIS RIFLE UNTIL YOU DETERMINE ITS ACTUAL CHAMBERING, which could be for any one of several cartridges of nominal 8mm bore size.

    Several years ago I became involved in a in a matter in which a man purchased a custom Mauser type rifle that was apparently chambered for .30-06 Springfield. The barrel was even stamped as such. Subsequent to the rifle's build and chambering in .30-06, someone rechambered it to .300 Weatherby Magnum and failed to remove the .30-06 caliber marking.

    This unfortunate individual loaded the rifle with .30-06, and fired it. today he has a badly damaged rifle and NO RIGHT EYE!

    If you wish to shoot it, have a competent gunsmith make at least a sulfur cast of the chamber; but woods metal would be better; to determine its actual chambering, which, as previously mentioned, could be any of several likely cartridges.

    Be safe, not sorry.
  5. richardoutwest

    richardoutwest New Member

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    Thanks Jack404 that is GREAT that you have a number for me to extend my search on this piece of craftsmanship. Hammer, no intension of ever firing the rifle. Best that I can tell, it is turn of the century and things that old should be left alone. It is a collector piece that is superb condition and if anything went wrong, it would be lost forever! just not worth the chance. I appreciate the responses and look forward to more!
  6. RJay

    RJay Well-Known Member

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    Old? Old? That puppy is in it's prime, Once the caliber is determined, you should be out talking to the white tails, That gun was made to hunt, not to be disrespected and hung on the wall:)
  7. Jim K

    Jim K New Member

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    The rifle is based on a Mauser Model 1898 action; it might be a commercial Mauser or based on a commercial Mauser action, but I suspect that that rifle is a "sporterized" military Mauser. The caliber most likely is 8x57JS but, as noted above, that should be checked by a competent gunsmith who KNOWS how to determine if the chambering is 8x57JS or 8x57J. The originaol markings on the receiver might help, but don't show up in the pictures.

    If by "turn of the century" you mean 1900, I seriously doubt it. Not only is the condition too good to be 100+ years old, the stock style is more like 1960 than 1900.

    It might have been made up in Germany for an American service member as many of those "sporterized" Mausers were.

    Burgsmuller is/was probably a small shop or a retailer, not the manufacturer.

    Jim
  8. ozo

    ozo Well-Known Member

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    Once again, Jim is spot on.
    IF....IF anything on her is 100yrs old, it would be
    only the breach/bolt. [IMHO]
    She is 100 percent BEAUTIFUL !!!!!!
    Looks like a sporterized military rifle that a very well-trained
    and very capable custom-smith took time on,
    and the 'owner' spent money on.
    Appears from the pics to be, as Jim has said, mid 20th century
    wood work, barrel work, and style of sporterization, although
    I am by no means qualified to be an experts valet.........
    but many moons ago, I did deal somewhat extensively in
    this area of transforming military weapons, usually quite bleak,
    or even plain and ugly, into a 'modern' pretty gun, which was not
    that costly to do in that day[per se], and also had a sentimental
    value [my dad's, my uncle's, brought back from...] to the owner that
    wanted it modernised and prettyfied.....if those are even words.....
    All that said, she is very nice, and you hold a wonderful beauty.
    Call JDJ auctions, and even if they don't know of the names you refer.....they shall definitely steer you to someone who does. Yet, for some silly reason,
    Burgsmuller rings a bell.
    Good hunting [info] and please keep us posted.
  9. richardoutwest

    richardoutwest New Member

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    From the research I did H. Burgsmuller & Sohne was a German "mail order" and custom company that mainly did double barrel shotguns or side by sides and pistols. From what I have read (little that I could find) they made custom mauser 98 action rifles up until 1914. Not by no means am I saying that this is what I have, just trying to get to the core of what I have. This is a picture of the stamps that may help find things out but I am still having trouble with them. Thanks for the reply's from all! I did cross out the last three digits of the serial number on the action and barrel. The crown with the N under seem to be since 1950 & nitro proof? also, what is the crown in the far left and the letters and numbers telling me? Thanks Again guys!

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    Last edited: Jun 10, 2012
  10. armoredman

    armoredman New Member

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    Proof mark? Whatever it is, it's beautiful, an excellent example of the gunsmiths trade.
  11. ozo

    ozo Well-Known Member

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    "they made custom mauser 98 action rifles up until 1914"
    That's what I'm thinking......the action may well be from the turn of the last century, then someone [w/class] took it to someone [w/class] and had a
    vision and an idea.......AND SKILL......and voila !!!!!
    A beautiful new arm was created.
    The last pic, amazing ! look at the fit!!!!
    Remember when Thompson Center Arms got on the octagon bbl craze ?????
    I think the transformation of your beauty is from around that time.
    Very skilled craftsman........mostly lost in this day.
    Please talk to JDJ, let us know.
    If this thread dies in the interim, please PM me with the findings......
    I will be ecstatic to learn the history of this one.
  12. richardoutwest

    richardoutwest New Member

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    OZO, I will let you know. I do have e-mails into James Julia, Michael Petrov and Leroy Merz. Somebody has to know exactly what the heck it is. Jim may be seeing something that I am missing, not to sure it is a sporterized military? I have been wrong before!
  13. Jim K

    Jim K New Member

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    The proof mark indicates the normal load is 2.75 grams of rifle flake powder, which is 42 grains, with a steel jacket bullet. That is in the 8x57 range. The proof marking also would be pre-1939. Oddly, the bullet weight and caliber are not given as they normally should be, and the marking is on the receiver, not on the barrel.

    As to sporterized military, I am not absolutely sure, either. The thumb cut is not definitive as Mauser Sporting actions might or might not have it. There are other clues but they would be hidden under the stock. I do doubt very much that any small maker "made" Mauser actions, though thousands used them and customized them.

    Another oddity is that while the scope is German, the base is American and mounted too far forward.

    Jim
  14. richardoutwest

    richardoutwest New Member

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    Yes Jim the base is "aftermarket", Buehler I think. Also I have found clues under the but pad on other rifles, should I be looking there also? Thanks for your info, I respect your knowledge. This is what I found under the stock

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    Last edited: Jun 10, 2012
  15. Jim K

    Jim K New Member

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    Before taking the stock off, look on the left rail for a "dished" area or any signs that something was polished off. Military rifles were deeply marked with "Gew 98" or "Mod. 98" or some other military designation. Mauser commercial sporters were marked with the Mauser name in the same location. Signs of erased serial numbers on parts like the safety also would indicate an ex-military action.

    Jim
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