H&R "The American Double Action" observations:

Discussion in 'Technical Questions & Information' started by 45Auto, Feb 24, 2009.

  1. 45Auto

    45Auto Well-Known Member

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    There appear to be three different types of trigger guard on the medium frame H&R "The American Double Action revolver:

    1. The two pins and a screw type: This one takes a screw in the front to hold the trigger guard to the frame, a short seperate pin holds the sear in the trigger guard and an addition pin in back of the sear pin holds the trigger guard to the frame. This one is the most easy model to work with if repairs are needed. Observed revolvers with this trigger guard have unmarked round barrels. It is hard to tell if a revolver has this type of trigger guard unless it is taken appart.

    2. The one pin and a screw type: This one is also found on revolvers with a round barrel. There is the same screw in the front but the sear is held by the same pin that holds the trigger guard to the frame.

    3. The two pins and no screw type: This type of trigger guard is the most common and it has been found on all of the octagon barrel revolvers I have seen so far. There is a pin in the front and a pin in the back to hold the trigger guard in place.

    Am I correct in my assumption that the two pins and a screw type is the earliest?
  2. b.goforth

    b.goforth New Member

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    yes i believe you are correct only i have never seen the two pins and one screw version. so fat i have only identified three variation of the first model american double action. can you send some pictures of the three types of trigger guard retainer you are talking about. all i have so far is;

    AMERICAN DOUBLE ACTION FIRST MODEL
    (BLACK POWDER MODEL):----------------------------- 1884-1904
    32 caliber 6 shot, 38 caliber 5 shot, 44 caliber 5 shot, pull pin cylinder release, barrel length 2½, 4½ & 6 inches nickel finish standard, blue considered rare
    Marked on top strap “AMERICAN DOUBLE ACTION”,
    first variation will have a round barrel & nickel trigger guard------1884-1887
    second variation will have a octagon barrel & nickel trigger guard-----1888-1897
    third variation will have a octagon barrel , blue trigger guard and company name and address on left side of barrel----1898-1904
    100%=$225 60%=$95, 1st Variation rarely seen, add 50% premium., for all American Double Actions variations and variants: add 15% premium, for blue finish, add 10% premium for 4 ½ “ or 6” barrel, add 5%-10% premium for nickel trigger guard (pre 1898)

    bill
  3. 45Auto

    45Auto Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG][/IMG]

    Hello Bill.

    As requested, here is an image of the three types of trigger guard. From the bottom up:

    1. Two pins and a screw type: The bottom example has two pin holes in the back. A short pin holds the sear in the trigger guard and the longer pin in back will secures the trigger guard to the frame. The front of the trigger guard is held in place by a screw. The screw is threaded into the hole which holds the cylinder tensioning spring and plunger.

    2. One pin and a screw type: The trigger guard in the center of the above image has a screw in the front, but only one pin in the back. The single back pin has two functions, it holds the sear in place and also secures the back of the trigger guard into the frame. Not as easy to work with as the ealiest type, but with the aid of a short assembly pin it is easy enough.

    3. Two pins only type: This is the most common trigger guard. The screw in the front has been replaced by a pin. This is the most common trigger guard found on solid frame H&R revolvers and clearly the most cost effective to manufacture.

    How to spot the earliest type (without tools!):

    The Most Common Type:

    [​IMG][/IMG]

    Above is a common H&R "The American Double Action" Solid frame revolver. Note that the back trigger guard pin is directly below the hammer screw. This is the most common position for the back trigger guard pin. Revolvers with the back pin directly below the hammer screw have one pin only in the back of the trigger guard. There is no extra short pin holding the sear.

    The Early two pins and a screw Type:

    [​IMG]

    The above example has two trigger guard pins and a screw in the front. The back trigger guard retaining pin is the only one visible with the revolver assembled. Note how the back trigger guard pin is set back a little closer to the grip frame. It is not directly below the hammer screw. Inside the trigger guard is the second, short, pin upon which the sear pivots.

    I have examined three "The American Double Action" revolvers with the two pins and screw trigger guard. Like the one above, all three were 6 shot .32 long caliber revolvers with round barrels.

    Best regards,
    Greg
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2009
  4. b.goforth

    b.goforth New Member

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    thank you very much for the pictures. after your post i went back to the pictures of the guns that are not mine (so i could not disassembly) and discovered that there was a difference in the rear pin location. so now the problem is going to be trying to determine the years of use. which is going to be a major problem because i also discovered thateven the parts catalogs after 1905 still show the small sear retaing pin.

    the easiest way out would be to simply earliest production of the first modell first variation have a rear trigger guard retaining pin in a slightly different location than later production.

    this is going to cause the american double action section of the book to be revised (i still have time to do this). how much and if i will add another variation to the first model is yet to be decided.

    thank you very much for this new discovery. i am going to save these pictures for future study
    bill
  5. 45Auto

    45Auto Well-Known Member

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    A pleasure to be of service, Bill.

    Remember, you are welcome to use any information or pictures I have for publication.

    Best regards,
    Greg
  6. b.goforth

    b.goforth New Member

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    thank you, i think for now this sub-variation is going to be a variation within the first model 1st variation with probable less than 100,000 and the use of the seperate sear pin within the first year of two of production. or it could be the other way around with a change made that just didn't work out. if a first model 2nd variation ever turns up with this seperate sear pin then we will know for sure.

    bill
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2009
  7. omer

    omer New Member

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    Bill, I also have a first model in 38 S&W with the two pins and screw type trigger guard its batch number is 140.
  8. b.goforth

    b.goforth New Member

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    it is possible there were two batch of first model first variation. i just don't know, but this is a very early production.

    bill
  9. omer

    omer New Member

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    Bill
    I believe they might have been after retaking the handles off I noticed the batch number was 104 not 140.I did try to take pics but my camera kept blurring with the nickel finish on it and the cheap camera I have.It is identical to "45Auto" last pic of the two pin and one screw revolver.Maybe H&R started with this style and later went to other trigger guards to help and cut cost.
  10. Old Gun Guy

    Old Gun Guy Member

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    Greg,
    I have been looking for a trigger guard for my H&R double-action model'04 .32 6-shot. Can you tell me what part# Numrich has for this Trigger guard? I can't find the right one.
    Ron
  11. 45Auto

    45Auto Well-Known Member

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    If you specificaly ask for an H&R "Model 1904" trigger guard Numrich should be able to get you the right part. Although my last order from them contained the wrong parts. If my memory is right, the Model 04 should have a blued guard with a pin hole at each end. If Numrich can't help you send me a PM and I'll see if I have an extra.
  12. Old Gun Guy

    Old Gun Guy Member

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    45Auto,
    The numrich catalog #29 has a schematic and parts list for the 1904 H&R double action revolver (page 254). Under "parts unique to a 1904", it has a guard listed for a .32 caliber 6-shot, which I have. I ordered that part # 271530, and it is too large to fit the trigger guard channel.They have a guard listed for the 1904 .32 S&W 5-shot small frame, part # 271510. Do you think this would be the right one? I'm confused because they don't list a guard for the medium frame, which I believe I have. Numrich is swamped, and I can't contact them by phone or email.
    Your help is greatly appreciated!
    Old Gun Guy
  13. Jim Hauff

    Jim Hauff New Member

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    Bill,
    Re: The ADA 1st Model pins: Check the difference between the one with s/n 14 and the three with s/n's 171, 173 and 200 on the pics I sent you. The last three all have the pin location that would indicate they are "two-pin" types. Looks like there's more than meets the eye when comparing these pieces. 45 Auto - looks like you just added another variation to this ever evolving history. I've been looking at my examples for years and never really noticed the external difference - but it sure is there. On the later variations, they all have the "one" pin location, including the 2nd Models.
    Thanks for the observations.
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2010
  14. Old Gun Guy

    Old Gun Guy Member

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    Gentlemen,
    And you wonder why I'm having problems sorting it out! :rolleyes::rolleyes:
    Old Gun Guy
  15. b.goforth

    b.goforth New Member

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    jim,
    when this was brought to my attention i did check the pictures and told 45auto this is going to change the variations of this model. now it looks like it is going to have to wait for a revised edition, the work on the book has gone to far but i may be able to get it in as a variation of one of the three majior variations, without illustrations. trying to discover dates on this variation can be difficult. most likely it will fit before the second variation

    when we get to the final edit i will have to try to remember to look at thiis very closely. i am loookking at a note attached to my computer to do just that.
    bill
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