Hard to Make Decision

Discussion in 'Large-Bore/Small-Bore Rifle/Shotgun' started by Spirit Hill, Feb 25, 2012.

  1. Spirit Hill

    Spirit Hill New Member

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    I hate to ask this but here goes. I was around guns a lot up until I began my career and then did not, sadly, have the time. That was a huge mistake as now I am way, way behind. So here is the scenario. We live in a rural area and I am concerned about whatever that basically causes the S***. I want our home protected. I need to get a new rifle, AR type, a tactical shotgun and a handgun my wife can use comfortably. I have been looking and reading and talking here and there. Last month, I said to myself, "Self, I am ready!" I was going to get a Windham .223 and an 870 shotgun. I am a big proponent of buying American. However, in the back of my mind, my concern kept back into my mind of the .308 because of stopping power and now I am back there and leaning toward a Romanian AK that is Americanized and I am not even sure what that means. I am also, after visiting a gun shop last week, leaning more toward a Saiga 12 gauge. I know most of the arguements for the .223. IF I had the money I would get both but I don't being a disable vet having to retire at 49 and being well past that age now at 67 but mentally about 40 and physically, about early 50 except for the two disabilities (kidney failure and really bad spine).

    How about some advice, please.
  2. Grizz

    Grizz Member

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    I'm in your same boat, I live in a rural area also. I would recommend getting a Maadi AK47, they are built on original russian machinery. After egypt got their asses kicked the russians disasembled their factories and shipped them to egypt. I own a couple and love them. Very accurate too. I also want to pick up the saiga shotgun when I get some more cash. Those things rock. Those AK are VERY reliable, you can't go wrong.
  3. cycloneman

    cycloneman Active Member

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    MY opinion

    1.st the ak types use the 7.62x39. Very cheap ammo avaliable right now. Good if your want to stock up 5 to 10K rounds on the cheap. Once SHTF there will be none of this cheap ammo imported any more, You will only have what you have. Our military does not use this round. No push for any factory to make it either. Unless you decide to buy brass and reload equpt and stock it I would not buy this cal.

    2. AR's and 223's. Everybody has one now. Most of the bullets are brass cased, reloadable. Cost you more to buy but reloadable. I think you will be able to find 223's when shtf in some way, either reloaded or factory, or military.

    3. A 22 Long rifle is a must. cheap to use and i think great for small game like birds and rabbits for food. Also 22 long rifle cb's are avaliable and every shtf stash should have some.

    This question comes up many times and the approach i take is this. I look at it from the eyes of the bullet manufacturers. What is the importance of bullet manufacture in a list.

    1. The 223, by far this is the cal that will be MOST used by our military and the round that will be in most demand

    2. The 308, second in line

    3. The 9mm

    4. The 22 long rifle

    After that they dont have to make a darn round, think about it.
    the 7.62x39 to me doesnt even make the list. Why? Because of the price of the imports. If shtf no more imports and then your up the creek. The round I stated earlier are going into production before anything else, I dont care what anyone says.
  4. cycloneman

    cycloneman Active Member

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    Now here is another way to look at this. I have a buddie who has been buying up all sorts of rifles in all kinds of cals. His reasoning is when he pulls into a store he will be able to hunt or protect himself with what ever he can find at the time. So he is buying rilfles in 7mag, 3006, 308, 300mag, 270, 243, just everything under the sun. That has merit too. I dont look at it that way.
  5. norahc

    norahc Active Member

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    In a SHTF/WROL scenario, one thing to consider is the weight of the ammo. Less weight means more ammo that can be transported.

    The three most likely courses of action in this scenario are:
    1) Short duration WROL scenario where you stay at home and defend what you have. Ammo weight is not much of consideration here, but it will come into play if you have to bug out for any reason.
    2) Short duration WROL scenario where you have to bug out. Ammo weight is a consideration here, because you will only have what you can carry.
    3) Long term SHFT scenario that entails doing 1, 2, or both from above. In this scenario ammo weight will be a factor during the bug out, but this is where ammo availability comes into play.

    IMO, scenarios 2 and 3 lend themselves to a .223/5.56 caliber simply because for the same weight I can carry more rounds that are in relatively large supply in this country.

    This is just my $.02 worth...does anybody have change for a nickel?
  6. RunningOnMT

    RunningOnMT New Member

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    You don't believe the .223/5.56X45 has sufficient stopping power for your purposes? Believe me, it is adequate for protecting you, your family, and your property. Nothing against the .308. I love the caliber. But unless you are planning fighting off a major foreign invasion, where you might need to take out an enemy @ 500 yds or more, it is unnecessary, and practice could get a bit pricey.

    The AK is OK too and those that claim to be American made are generally assembled in the U.S. from imported parts kits, and sometimes retrofitted with an American made barrel or receiver. I generally believe in buying American too, except in the case of guns. There are so many desirable gun designs, unique to foreign countries, that it's just not practical to restrict yourself to American manufacturers.

    P.S. Saiga rifles and shotguns are an exceptionally good value. I own two Saiga rifles, in .223 and 7.62X39.

    BTW Welcome Spirit Hill to TFF. Nice to meet you.
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2012
  7. 68c15

    68c15 Well-Known Member

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    your bad back may have some say on what caliber you get. too much may be hard on you. put me in line with the .223 guys
  8. Claudius Valarium

    Claudius Valarium Member

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    First of all, welcome to TFF Spirit. Glad you are here.

    If home protection is primarily what you are after, then I would suggest a 12 ga. shotgun as your first purchase. Get a good butt pad so your wife can shoot without hesitation. Suggest Remington 870 or Winchester 1200. Lots of aftermarket products for these two. Honestly, I don't know much about the Saiga - I'm sure it will work for you if that is the route you choose.

    Second purchase, as mentioned already is something in .223 caliber. Many choices in the AR platform. Think about a Ruger Mini-14 Ranch Rifle in this caliber. I love mine. It's not a nail driver for accuracy, but definitely will eat anything I feed it. You can't go wrong with .308 caliber either. Personally, I see nothing wrong with a hunting rifle. You don't have to have all the bells and whistles of a "modern sporting rifle". It all shoots the same ammo and usually at less price.

    Third purchase, the handgun. 9mm is fine and your wife will probably like the way it shoots. But, I would suggest a .45acp for stopping power. At least try it out before you discount it. .357 will work almost as well. My wife has a .357 revolver - but she doesn't like to shoot my 45acp, but I she wouldn't hesitate to shoot the 45 in a self defense situation.

    If you haven't already done so, poke around TFF. There is a lot of opinions and a lot of good information here. Look at the self-defense forum in particular. Take your time and get what works for you.

    Regarding ammo. I suggest you choose firearms based upon availability of ammo. And reloading components too, because I reload most of my own ammo.

    And don't discount buying used firearms. Just do your research and check them out (or have a gunsmith of your choice check them out) before you buy. There are some good bargains out there on used guns.

    Oh yeah, and you can never practice enough. Good luck.
  9. Spirit Hill

    Spirit Hill New Member

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    You folks threw a couple of curves to me that I must address. First of all, .308 and 7.62! I was under the belief that this was the same as .223 and 5.56. Some guns shoot both, some will shoot only one of the two. I was also under the impression that in the .308 and 7.62, they were more interchangable than the .223/5.56. Am I wrong?

    Secondly, What does WROL mean? You lost me there.

    Lastly, unless something really unforeseeable happens, no matter what happens, we are sticking it out right here. Therre are only two ways into this geo area. There are plenty of neighbors, and we can cut off this area on each end preventing any "explorers" from coming in. We are stocked and continue to do so and we can grow our own. We have one neighbor with a large herd of beef and other neighbors with other items. You cannot get to our house without being seen. However, if you don't know this house is here, you will drive by a 100 times and still not know it!. I intend to keep it that way. There is a basement. There are two rooms right now that unless you have a tank or equal, you can't get a round into it. IN an hour, there will be three or more rooms in the same shape. And, again, you can't get to it without being seen. What you all said about the .308/7.62 is true about power. And that is my thought exactly. Why let anyone get within 100 yards if I can prevent it? The closer they get, the more threat they are. However, you make some great points about the .223. I am also aware that a lever action or bolt action in the same caliber will do the same. However, fear is best to have on one's side and that AR is very threatening, especially to those that don't know squat, which is most of Americans, when it comes to guns.

    There are two things about Saiga guns. They are like Glocks and some others, like AK, they don't jam. But the really big point about Saiga shotguns is that drum magazine with 50 rounds! There is also a 30 round box mag for it. I had also believed that Saiga only made shotguns and did not know about the rifles. Interesting.

    Someone said the American military does not shoot 7.62! I would dispute that and say that 50% of our military does. Plus, our troops usually face off against the 7.62. So apparently it is more common that some think or I am totally wrong and have been totally misinformed. Surely, there are some young vets around here that can clear that up. Plus, there is the new battleround, the Blackout 300. IF you can get a gun that will fire it and you can get the ammo, that is THE way to go and I would go with that in a heartbeat with no thought whatsoever of anything else. But, it is too new and I am not clear about whether or not you have to have a specific gun for that caliber. Maybe someone here knows.

    I am flat too old to go on the run and am not doing it. I will hang out right here and that is that. IF we were in a city or town, that would be completely different, but we are not. Plus the advantage of cutting off this area.

    Thanks for the info so far. I really appreciate it a great deal!

    TheOldOne
  10. norahc

    norahc Active Member

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    WROL means Without Rule Of Law - kinda like post Katrina New Orleans.

    Yes, our military does use the 7.62 round, but it is not the same 7.62 round in the AK platform. The 223/556 is more than adequate within the 100 yards you mentioned.
  11. fordtrucksforever

    fordtrucksforever New Member

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    Your military 7.62 is a .308. That is 7.62X51 cartridge. The original AK shoots a 7.62X39. There are AK's that shoot 308, along with other calibers. Your best for home defense is a 12 gauge, an example would be like a Winchester 1300 defender. Its short barreled with high capacity rounds. If its night time and you dont have a perfect aim on an intruder, the short barrel will yield a wider pattern at target. Unless your wife stays in practice a lot, I would not personally go larger than 9mm for a pistol. I prefer a 45 myself, but it causes women to flinch when firing, usually missing the intended target completely.
  12. cycloneman

    cycloneman Active Member

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    7.62 is refering to the diameter of the bullet which is 30 cal.

    x what ever number is the over all length of the cartridge.

    so you have the 7.62 x 39 which is the typicall ak round

    the 7.62 x 51 which is a nato round also called the .308 which is what we use

    there is also an old 7.62 x 54 russian round, you might hear some talk about

    Attached Files:

  13. cycloneman

    cycloneman Active Member

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  14. CHW2021

    CHW2021 Member

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    Rather odd, if your kidneys are "not up to par" living off the grid will have it's own challenges for you.

    Since you indicate back problems I have a few "suggestions" for you. First, try to carry a Saiga with a 50 round drum, it is heavy. If you are not familiar with shotguns, shoot a few and see how your back deals with the recoil; look at a 870 in 20 ga. as it would be lighter and have slightly less recoil and would be manageable for your wife.

    Buy a .22 rifle and pistol and learn to shoot.

    Buying a "big and bad" gun is great for the ego and poor for performance if you can not manage it; be practical and match a rifle to your comfort and your wifes.Look at a common caliber that is good for defense and hunting; .223/5.56 is good, poorly place a shot on a deer and you had better be ready to track it. 30 caliber is a more practical idea if your rifle is to do several jobs; find one you can handle for weight and make sure your wife can accept it as well.

    Good luck and I would suggest you spend some time at the range and learn your abilities before buying.
  15. cycloneman

    cycloneman Active Member

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    i will throw one more in the mix for ya. lets say your in a fire fight. What gun do you think you can reload faster? That should be the gun you buy first.
  16. jyantkilr

    jyantkilr Former Guest

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    Rule of law? There will always be military rule, without it you will have over 100 nuclear power generating plants just in the US in melt down. Oh yeah, you will be moving alright, as far away from the East Coast and the US as possible. I suggest only a .22 rifle and .357 handgun and a whole lot of batteries for that much needed Dosimeter.

    When we go into military rule and you don't like them or their sophisticated weaponry, you better learn stealth in a vast wilderness. A bow and arrow may be the best choice.
  17. carver

    carver Moderator

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    Spirit Hill, first welcome to the forum! You have been given some good info so far. I'm in the camp of those that will stay put in a SHTF scenario. Remember that if you are going to stay where you are, then there will be no foraging for ammo, food, or anything else. What you have is all there is. You might find some guns, ammo, and food on those that attack your position, and fail, but will the guns, and ammo be what you need? Since you have a bad back you really need to get yourself down to the gun shop and lift a few of these rifles. I have a couple of .308's, and I can tell you right now that I don't want to have to lug either of these guns around for long. One of the rifles I have is the Saiga in .308. This rifle is a heavy clunky thing at best, add a 25, or 30 round magazine, and it gets real heavy. Don't let anyone fool you on the 7.62X39, there have been millions sold in America, and most of the folks that buy them also buy the ammo for their guns in bulk, so there is plenty of both ammo, and guns, floating around out there.
  18. Grizz

    Grizz Member

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    Also don't forget about the trusty old Mosin Nagant bolt action rifle. They use the 7.62x54R round. The Mosin's go for about $100 and you can get surplus ammo pretty cheap. here is a video I made with my mosin shooting FMJ lead core rounds at steel

    Mosin vs steel
  19. bntyhntr6975

    bntyhntr6975 Member

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    The disputes could go on and on and on over what is best in what situation. If you're going to be going at it all alone for the most part, it really doesn't matter which you choose, but you better have plenty of ammo and know how to use it wisely. If you're going to be "making a stand" in or around a populated area, your best choices would be things chambered in popular cartridges so ammo can be aquired more easily. Almost every LEO (or LEO vehicle) will most likely have .223/5.56, 12 gauge, and 9mm or .40 ammo. Some may have .45ACP and .308. Most of our military will have the same finds. But as was said, there is alot of 7.62x39 ammo and weapons out there, finding ammo (if/when you run out) shouldn't be a problem. I would for sure not recommend relying on picking up extra .22-250 Ackley Improved ammo, you most likey won't find it anywhere. Nothing against the round, it's just very common to come across. Also, I have to agree with .22LRs, that ammo may well become a standard currency. Don't do without it. Lol.
  20. gun runner

    gun runner Former Guest

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    If I were you and if I wanted an assault rifle that had alot of stopping power, great looks and great reputation being made in the USA then I would get a Bushmaster AR10 which is a
    .308 caliber Assault Weapon. As far as a shotgun goes, you might like a fine quality shotgun such as the popular benelli, I dont know if they make tactical shotguns but in just my opinion Id rather have a regular stock shotgun. An 870 I believe is not a tactical shotgun? As far as a Pistol there are too many brands out there. A high capacity semi auto pistol would be a great idea as well. I know Springfield Armory has some that have up to 16+1 rounds. I would get two in case one jams ;) Serious though on that. There is also plenty of other good brands like Beretta, Smith and Wesson. Glock( although I wouldnt have one) Colt. I would even feel comfortable using a good .44 Magnum Revolver

    Remember always use good quality ammunition and keep the guns always cleaned and if I read right the OP said hes a retired war vet so you already know about keeping your weapons clean.

    Each of the weapons I talked about are very good choices. I say Bushmaster because I just love Bushmaster Firearms. Benelli is Italian made but a very fine quality shotgun.
    As far as Pistols or revolvers, a sling shot could be used if you want to stop the guy by shooting him in the face with a good large rock so it doesnt matter what brand of pistol you use. I certainly wouldnt use an Academy Sporting Goods special you know.

    Good luck and I hope your family stays safe as well as yourself.
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2012
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