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Help for a guy asking me questions on an M91...

Discussion in 'Curio & Relics Forum' started by cointoss2, Mar 4, 2003.

  1. cointoss2

    cointoss2 Guest

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 2615
    (1/15/02 11:50:12 am)
    Reply | Edit | Del All Help for a guy asking me questions on an M91...
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    I sold some stripper clips to a guy on GB who is now asking me questions about his 91 he's thinking of selling. I invited him here, but I think he's a computer newby and is unsure how...while I'm trying to talk him through it, here's what he's got...

    (I am NOT a Finn expert, but he thinks I am...)

    Sounds like a pretty run of the mill WWI capture, reissued. It is a standard Russian stocked 91, with SA stamp, and possibly Sako stamps too, he's not too good at descriptions...it has the markings on both sides of the rear sight, but the Arshini markings are not crossed out.

    It's good metal, stock is dinged and missing the handguard...according to him.

    BUT...I'm hesitant to tell him what I think it's worth, because he says it has GERMAN markings on the stock, a barely legible "cross" (Maltese?) and the legible words "TSCHS REICH" (His words...)

    Is it a German WWI capture then sold given to the FInns? If so, is it worth more?

    He's a nice guy, who is trying to get me pictures, if he comes here, please help him out, as I know you all will...

    He also is selling some new guns, and doesn't know how to list them, I'm helping him there too...
    We must make war as we must; not as we would like. - Field Marshal Kitchener, 1915

    Edited by: polishshooter at: 1/15/02 7:51:53 pm

    Bob In St Louis
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1659
    (1/15/02 9:47:07 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: Help for a guy asking me questions on an M91...
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    I have heard several stories lately around this area about Mosin Nagants with Swastikas or German Crosses carved in them, and/or German writing. I think a lot of it is some twisted shmucks cobbling on run of the mill MNs with their trusty barlow knives, then peddling them as "German War captures autographed by Hitler then sold to the Finns" or some such garbage.

    We will need to get more details from this fellow - who knows, maybe it is authentic.
    Crusty Cruffler of Fine Spanish Pistols - Eibar Rules!

    Moskovskyya
    Member
    Posts: 50
    (1/15/02 10:37:05 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: Help for a guy asking me questions on an M91...
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    Hey polish, you're more of an expert than you think you are. It is a WWI capture. When captured, the Germans is many cases used the rifle as is with only the "REICH" or "DEUTSCH" stampings added to the reciever rail. After WWI these "booty" rifles were sold to the Finns for badly needed revenue purposes. Some stocks were replaced, while many retained the one piece stock depending on condition.

    I have one of these that I have studied for some time and mine is what I call double Finned Chatelerau. It was built by the French for Russia in IIRC in 1892, captured by Germany WWI, Had P-27 barrel lineing and jointed stock during a Finn Rebuild in 1927. It also hs WWII sling modifications like the M39's, that were misteriously later plugged. Some folks have told me that this is common when Finn rifles were recaptured by the Russians, so this one has been around.

    As to value, I gave 60 for this one, (pawn shp find) and have never seen another one like it, The P-27 B barrel adds value, after at least 2 rebuilds, and still an M91 is strange in its self. Its a French made piece, and the Czar eagles are intact, I was told around $200 by an advanced collector on this one.

    For the one in question here, missing handgard, it might have never had one, the early first few French pieces didn't have a handgard, Do the bands indicate it's missing or never had one?
    It might be a unique piece, but more info would be needed.

    Reciever tang date? Type stock? Type barrel bands? Sling swivels /slots? Any matching numbers? Rod present? Bore condition?

    Hope this helps, but maybe just ore questions!

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 2625
    (1/17/02 12:00:49 am)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: Help for a guy asking me questions on an M91...
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    Well, Jerry has been checking in here, but hasn't joined yet. Or else hasn't figured out how.

    He sent me some pictures, am gonna see if GP will post them here for us.

    Looks legit. BUT it has a Russian stock, but the barrel bands are Finnish for sure...don't know if it ever had a handguard.

    Front sight is the correct unhooded Finnish. BUT he just told me there are markings on the reciever in German, I'll cut and paste what he said from his emails.

    There is NO date on the reciever, just an "S" in a kind of a shield I've never seen before on top of the reciever. No other markings there, strange.

    It is import marked, CAI, but even THAT is funny...he says it says "M91 SWITZ 7.62x54R" where they stamped their name and address.

    The stock markings look legit, and yeah, it's DEUTCHES RIECH around the circle.

    It has a rod, and is matching, at least the bolt anyways...

    Here it is:

    "by looking closer with a magnifying glass and a bright light
    it is
    stamped DEUTSHES REICH. on the stock and on the barrel on the right
    hand
    side just left of the front sight in very small letters CAI. SI. ALB VI
    and
    under that it says M91 SWITZ 7.62X54R . now where it says CAI that
    could be
    CAJ or CAL i'm not sure. the one man said it was possible it may not
    had a
    hand guard on it and by the way the rings look there isn't any room for
    anything to fit between the barrel and the rings. i hope the pics will
    help
    you. on the right side of the receiver it says SCHWEIZ INDUSTRIES
    GESELLSCHAFT and under that it says NEUHAUSEN"
    We must make war as we must; not as we would like. - Field Marshal Kitchener, 1915

    Edited by: polishshooter at: 1/17/02 12:04:35 am

    Bob In St Louis
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
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    (1/17/02 8:25:05 am)
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    I have had some of the Swiss made MNs in the past. The "S" in the shield on the top of the chamber is correct, and the labeling on the side of the receiver is the Swiss firm that made the rifle. I would guess that this rifle is one from the batch of Finnish imports that Century brought in during the early to mid 1980s. The stamp on the stock - who knows if that was the original stock for the gun? The Finns did a lot of mix & match. All of the Swiss rifles I have seen have had the top wood handguard, so I would hazard a guess that the Finns fiddled with the stock on this one.
    Crusty Cruffler of Fine Spanish Pistols - Eibar Rules!

    gpostal
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1937
    (1/17/02 1:57:44 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: Help for a guy asking me questions on an M91...
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    Edited by: gpostal at: 1/17/02 2:29:52 pm

    RobC in Missouri
    V.I.P. Member
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    (1/17/02 2:57:42 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: Help for a guy asking me questions on an M91...
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    Couldn't see the pics, but the "S in a shield" marking sounds like it may very well be a Finnish Model 91/24 - that's the old Civil Guard marking, IIRC. The barrel is SIG production, but the receiver is Russian (all the Finnish guns used Russian receivers). The 91/24 has a heavier barrel than the standard 91, so if that's the original Russian stock, it would've been routed out a bit for the barrel to fit. The barrel may also have a step in it near the front sight. The German markings could mean that it was originally a Russian 91 captured my Germany, then sold to the Finns, who rebarrelled it. This gun has a history behind it!

    M91/24s are relatively uncommon, and on the collector market could fetch $200-350 depending on condition - possibly more on an auction site. Have him pull the stock and look under the tang for the receiver date and arsenal marking - you never know, it may turn out to be antique as well!

    RobC in Missouri

    RobC in Missouri
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    (1/17/02 3:50:30 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: Help for a guy asking me questions on an M91...
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    Changed browsers - now I can see the pics. It is indeed an M91/24, sans handguard (perhaps it never had one - who knows). Check Tuco's ( www.mosin-nagant.net ) for more info on it.

    RobC in Missouri

    gamehunter3
    Member
    Posts: 1
    (1/17/02 7:10:45 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del m-91
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    I'm the guy who has this m-91. I just registered and I am checking to see if I did this right. so bear with me. I found this gun at a gun show and this guy had 50 of them but it was the only one that had what I thought was an original stock, but I'm no expert.the markings intrigued me. there is a step on the barrel about an inch and one half behind the front sight . I'm going to try to take the stock off so I can see if there is a date hidden.

    LIKTOSHOOT
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 3467
    (1/17/02 7:19:43 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: m-91
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    Welcome Gamehunter3, durn Ruskies and Finns. Hex receiver, good deal! Crest is correct too. Is there a "B" stamped on the barrel?? The crest is the very same one as a "Sniper"(?) model I got some time back [Fake, long story] but the markings are correct. Looks as though you made it just fine, the site was down most of the day......so bear with us. Regards LTS

    Zigzag2
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 2012
    (1/17/02 7:41:05 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: m-91
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    Hello Gamehunter and welcome to The Firearms Forum



    gamehunter3
    Member
    Posts: 2
    (1/17/02 8:15:20 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: m-91
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    Thanks alot. I did take the stock off and there was no date on the underside. I saw a rifle on gb and it had the S inside a shield and the owner said it was a sako sky. Mine does have the sa on the left side of the receiver.




    THANKS JERRY IN FLORIDA

    Moskovskyya
    Member
    Posts: 58
    (1/17/02 8:40:28 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: m-91
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    The receiver date should be stamped on the underside of the tang aft of the screw hole Sept 1896 woild probably look like 9 * 8 with an arsenal stamp in the center.

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 2632
    (1/17/02 9:15:04 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: m-91
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    JERRY, GLAD to see you made it!! See, I TOLD you guys would be interested!

    Dan, I tried to send you the rest of Jerry's pics but they came back undeliverable "Recipient did not like sender" or something...GEEZ, you Democrats sure hold a GRUDGE!

    Moska, now you got ME playing with my one Finn...

    I'm going to take mine apart tonite to see if the date is on MY tang...I've never noticed on any other MN...but like I said, all my others are 91/30s and 44s, BUT I have three transition hex 91/30s which should have it...

    What's the Tikka marking look like? The one I bought from Bob last year has a teeny shield on the top hex flat on the reciever, that I swear has a TIK under a crest with wings it looks like, but the darn thing is so small even with a glass I can't be sure...darn these "gettin old" eyes...

    I may be stupid, but I don't have one to compare...doesn't a Russian 91 have barrel bands like a 91/30??? I.e., if it was a French Shosho, it would have the RUSSIAN bands not the Finnish type with the screws, right?

    And what is the story on the Swiss MNs? I never heard that before...did they MAKE them? Or rework captured ones? That part intrigues me....



    We must make war as we must; not as we would like. - Field Marshal Kitchener, 1915

    gamehunter3
    Member
    Posts: 3
    (1/17/02 9:24:11 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: m-91
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    I just got a little history lesson. The S thats is in the shield is the earliest civil guard stamp. It was changed after 1928. The barrel is swiss made and it was 1 of 8000, then the the barrels were made by germans. The DEUTSCHES REICH stamp on the stock ment it was a german WW1 capture rifle.




    JERRY IN FLORIDA

    Bob In St Louis
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1670
    (1/17/02 9:44:38 pm)
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    Well golly - we is always learning! The Swiss barrel one I had had the S in a shield, and the Century import stamp saying Swiss made. Things we always learn.

    Polishshooter - I have disassembled and cleaned a bunch of Russian M44s, 1944 dated in laminated stocks - they are all stamped 1944 on the underside of the tang.
    Crusty Cruffler of Fine Spanish Pistols - Eibar Rules!

    gamehunter3
    Member
    Posts: 4
    (1/17/02 9:50:00 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: m-91
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    On the front hole of the receiver there is the numbers 810 in front of the hole. Does this have anything to do with the date?








    THANKS JERRY IN FLORIDA

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 2638
    (1/18/02 12:17:11 am)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: m-91
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    Where did you get the "History Lesson," Jerry? Sounds like you got it figured out...

    STILL I'd like to know how the Swiss got into MNs...

    I still don't understand the German stock markings on a Swiss rifle though...German capture from the Russians sold to Switzerland, rebuilt, then resold to Finland???? Talk about a "road less traveled..."

    Or could it be a captured STOCK put into use on a rebuilt rifle BODY later? The Finns, like the Russians, never threw away anything serviceable...
    We must make war as we must; not as we would like. - Field Marshal Kitchener, 1915

    gpostal
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1940
    (1/18/02 8:51:11 am)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: m-91
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    WELCOME GAMEHUNTER3

    polish

    i only recived the three ,are you sure you sent the rest to the corect email?

    try sending me a email today 1-18-02





    Xracer
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1491
    (1/18/02 9:28:27 am)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: m-91
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    Welcome Gamehunter!

    With all the traveling that baby's done, I wouldn't be surprised if Anastasia carried it to Paris and later sold it to Elvis.......

    RGRWJB
    Member
    Posts: 11
    (1/18/02 9:51:41 am)
    Reply | Edit | Del
    ezSupporter
    Re: m-91
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    Hello guys

    If this rifle has the "S" in the shield, it is a m/24 or sometimes referred to as a m/91-24 Lotta rifle. These were heavy barrelled m/91s that were rebarrelled by the Finns due to barrel wear. The above picture shows the end of the barrel is stepped so the standard Russian bayonet can fit on the end. These were Civil Guard rifles and are rare finds. Some of these I have seen do not have upper barrel bands. The barrel bands for these are very hard to find. This is due to the fact that the barrels on these are thicker.
    When shooting these guns or any Finn rifles you will find the heavy bullets work best.
    The German marking means that it was captured by the Germans and then supplied to the Finns. These German markings were always placed on these guns when the were at the the German Arsenal.

    The price on these run anywhere form $150 to $400 depending where and how you sell these guns.


    RGR WJB
    Mosin Nagants of the World
    pub55.ezboard.com/fcollec...s35625frm2

    Moskovskyya
    Member
    Posts: 61
    (1/18/02 10:00:30 am)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: m-91
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    Hi guys, I don't have my book with me, I'm "working" right now. The early tula mark was a little hammer looking thing, as I recall. Most all the manufacturers changed their markings between 1917 and 30. Most round recievers weren't numbered on the underside of the tang like the hex'es. The little shield looking thing is probably a small bow with an arrow in it. Some were arrow only, these were Izhevsk, and Seystroesk (sp) early markings, and there also french Chetellerau markings. You will find many 1917 parts from New England Westinghouse with an E with an arrow on the middle prong.

    I recommend a book By Terrance Lapin, titled Mosin Nagants of the world, and one by Dowg Bowser, titled Rifles of the white death that deals mostly with the Finns, and Finn history of engagements with the Russians. Both these books are excellent guides to all the tiny things that are peculiar to these rifles. They are actually a must for the collector.

    Flhunter
    V.I.P. Forum Host
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    (1/18/02 10:34:52 am)
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    Now I'm really confused. I guess I had better pull my book out and do some reading. That would probably only confuse me more though. LOL.

    Moskovskyya the book you referred to by Terrance Lapin is titled "The Mosin-Nagant Rifle" I believe and not "Mosin Nagants of the world". Unless he produced two books. Like I said after reading this thread I'm all confused.

    Owning one of these rifles is a must if for nothing else then to study it and learn its travels thru-out history.

    Oh BTW, Welcome aboard gamehunter3 !!!!!

    RobC in Missouri
    V.I.P. Member
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    (1/18/02 1:06:50 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: m-91
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    Polishshooter - the marking you have on the top hex of the receiver is actually a Czarist eagle. The letters that look like "TIK" is actually the character for Pi followed by a k. Original Russian M91s would also have the same marking on the barrel shank, above the arsenal stamp. However, after the 1917 revolution, the markings were removed (scrubbed) or peened out, and they didn't stamp the eagle after that. I don't know what the ratio of M91s with intact eagles is vs. scrubbed eagles - I assume intact eagles are more scarce.

    The Swiss didn't build M91s - The Finns contracted with the Swiss firm SIG to make barrels for them.

    RobC in Missouri

    Moskovskyya
    Member
    Posts: 63
    (1/18/02 2:50:35 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: m-91
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    Sorry Flhunter, you sir are right about the title. Lapin has written many books, but only one on the Mosin Nagant that I know of. I use the book a lot, just apparrently never pay much attention to the title, thanks!

    gamehunter3
    Member
    Posts: 5
    (1/18/02 6:18:39 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: m-91
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    The infomation I got was from www.mosin-nagant.net There is a section on markings and proofs. and also on th M91/24. It seemed to me that what they said was what i had.with this rifle.



    JERRY IN FLORIDA

    Moskovskyya
    Member
    Posts: 64
    (1/18/02 9:14:10 pm)
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    Mr. gamehunter3, do you want to sell, or trade the rifle?

    gamehunter3
    Member
    Posts: 6
    (1/18/02 10:06:52 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: m-91
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    Hi ! It has been interesting finding a little history. I would like to find out what its worth. but also I have a couple of newer guns for sale too. I am looking for a remington 7400 30-06 for deer hunting. My wife said I should look for more old rifles like the one I have and who knows maybe I could get lucky again. I got a deal when I bought this one about 5 years ago. The man had 50 of them and this one was the only one with what I thought was an original stock. I like the german stamp on the stock. After I bought it the guy looked a little closer and said I kind of wished I kept that one. I am open to offers. JERRY IN FLORIDA

    kdub01
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 170
    (1/18/02 10:55:10 pm)
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    Hey, Jerry - !

    Welcome to TFF! Hope you stick around and join in when the urge strikes. Lots of info and even more BS here - good folk and more than a few pranksters! Enjoy - !

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 2642
    (1/18/02 11:19:26 pm)
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    I think I'm going to buy Lapins book tomorrow at the Gun Show in Indy...

    I have three "transition" 91/30s that intrigue me...one a 1920 Izhevsk, that has a rearsenal mark, BUT has Imperial Russian Cyrillic on the reciever, it would be out of place, right? I mean there should NOT be Imperial Markings after 1917 or 18, right?...ALONG with two hammer and sickles in the wreath, that seem hurredly put on...one on the hex looks like it's an overstamp of the Czar's eagle...it is pretty ratty, but solid...I THINK it may be a Dragoon that on rearsenal was converted to a 91/30 later...it has 91/30 sights, BUT the barrel on this, and another one (1929 Izh) are slightly longer than my 1931 Tula, and my 41 and 43 Izhs....they have the early stocks though, with the screwed sling slot metal.

    The early 91/30s, up to like 1936 are pretty cool...they used old parts, converted Dragoons, and kept changing them little by little until they "settled" on the design like in 37 or so...

    I need to find an actual Dragoon to REALLY start the collection of transitions off right...
    We must make war as we must; not as we would like. - Field Marshal Kitchener, 1915

    Moskovskyya
    Member
    Posts: 67
    (1/18/02 11:41:38 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: m-91
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    Hey Polish, if you're doing any Finns, don't forget Doug Bowsers book "Rifles of the White Death", fron North cape Publications. He has a lot of general Mosin info, but mostly specialized Finn stuff. He's a good ol boy from middle Mississippi.

    gamehunter3
    Member
    Posts: 7
    (1/19/02 7:55:32 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: m-91/ Question for Bob in ST. LOUIS
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    Have you ever heard of ST. LOUIS ARMS CO.


    JERRY IN FLORIDA







    Bob In St Louis
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1688
    (1/20/02 9:36:57 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: m-91/ Question for Bob in ST. LOUIS
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    Looked at a 91/24 at the gunshow today. Had the Swiss barrel and the early guard "S" in a shield, but the stock was not marked. The fellow wanted $295 for it, but would settle for $250.

    I have seen some revolvers from the early 1900s marked St. Louis Arms Company - is that what you are referring to - early 1900s arms? They were a distributor that handled and brokered arms to retailers - rifles, shotguns & mostly cheap pistols (lots o' nickel plated).
    Crusty Cruffler of Fine Spanish Pistols - Eibar Rules!

    gamehunter3
    Member
    Posts: 11
    (1/20/02 9:54:12 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: m-91/ Question for Bob in ST. LOUIS
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    The reason I asked is that I have an old St. Louis Arms double barrel 12 ga. shotgun and I was looking for a little history about it. It looks about 75 to a 100 years old but it is in nice shape.



    THANKS, JERRY IN FLORIDA

    Edited by: gamehunter3 at: 1/20/02 9:55:38 pm

    Bob In St Louis
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1692
    (1/20/02 10:16:56 pm)
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    That is about all I know about them - early 1900s, mostly mediocre grade arms. "Firearms of the masses, for behind the seats of their Model T Fords"
    Crusty Cruffler of Fine Spanish Pistols - Eibar Rules!
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