Help! Old Muzzleloader Rifle I.D with detailed Pics!

Discussion in 'Black Powder Shooting / Muzzleloaders / Handguns' started by Lowsonoma21, Jan 19, 2010.

  1. Keystone

    Keystone New Member

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    That is a NICE rifle you have there. I like it.
  2. Lowsonoma21

    Lowsonoma21 New Member

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    Haha, well I can see where your coming from that the barrel is modern, but jack already said that. You're right the sights definitely are modern, the one closest to the hammer actually flips up. The muzzle does not "cone" in either, it is perfectly flat. The percussion cap is almost brass, at least looks like it is, and doesnt match the rest of the lock so it does look like it has been converted. I don't know what you mean about the Ferrells, is that the metal looping designed to hold the rod? Well they were obviously sodded, or tacked on, as were the sights. I know what you mean about the key, it had me scratching my head. As I looked closer on the gun as to where it should be, I found a nail/pin which potentially could be holding it in place, or its just coinsidence. I will post more pics on this, and the barrel, and every angle I can! I dont know if the fact that it has 1 trigger determines on its age, but thats just my thinking. I know where you're coming from though. To me, it makes no sense to have a single shot with 2 triggers? Unless there's a reason I can't think of. Thanks for the info Doug.

    @ Z Kovach - Basically I have given her a "rub down" just with regular oil though. There is still residue from the blackpowder on the barrel, and other miscelanious marks. Should I worry about getting them off, or don't bother? I have some rust remover that might be good for it? Im not sure. I would like to take the barrel off and give it a good clean, but i'm skeptical about taking it appart. I want to shine that brass up real nice aswell. I went to take the hammer off, and the screw felt unusually loose, so I wanted to compare it with the Cap, and it was just as loose. Both the screws came of in a matter of seconds, only to find out they were BOTH snapped in half! Thats right! Some retard had already tried to remove them, and didn't prep the rusty screws before. Now I think I'm in some trouble.... Maybe thats why the guy gave it to me for free.

    @ Keystone - Thanks brother


    The top screw infront of the hammer seems to be holding in the trigger, and other parts. I'm worried about damaging or loosing the main spring. Youll understand what I mean by looking at the new pictures I uploaded. Thanks for the reply's
  3. Lowsonoma21

    Lowsonoma21 New Member

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  4. rammed

    rammed New Member

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    Well as far as your question on two triggers goes. It's a double set trigger. When you cock the hammer, you then pull the back trigger. This "sets" the front trigger and it's a "hair trigger. It's adjusted for a very light pull.

    Your new pics shows a lot of corrosion around the nipple. I think that is what you are calling a percussion cap. A percussion cap fits on the nipple and makes the gun discharge.

    I doubt if the previous owner cleaned the gun and the barrel will be to far gone to save. Powder residue is very hygroscopic and draws moister.

    To take the gun apart, Cock the hammer and remove the screw that holds the lock on. The lock will not fall apart when you remove it. Everything is screwed together on the lock. Remove the screw from the tang. You are correct about it screwing into the trigger assembly. Remove the nail from the stock with a pin punch ( I called it a barrel key). The barrel will then lift out of the stock.

    I would like to see a pic of the inside of the lock. I could tell you if it's an original or a Davis repro.

    To take the barrel apart, Unscrew the drum from the barrel. The drum holds the nipple. Just take them out together. Then unscrew the tang form the back of the barrel. Use padded jaws in a vice to do that. Soak the barrel in some kind of anti-seize fluid first. Liquid wrench, Kroil, etc.

    You will then be able to tel if the barrel is OK.

    Doug
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2010
  5. Lowsonoma21

    Lowsonoma21 New Member

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    Awesome thanks for the guide. I know have the barrel detached, trigger and firing pin out, sturup off, and now the hammer is at half cocked on the stock. The percussion cap tray thing or the nipple is still on the barrel because someone has already snapped the crew in half it seems, unless if it is really corroded and does not want to come off, but it does seem as if the screw snapped ill try and get pics. Same goes with the screw on the hammer. It seems to be the same case, either its snapped, which I am 99% it is, or its stuck on. I dont know what I'm going to do from here. Should I at least put the trigger, pin, and screw back so i can un-cock the hammer? Or does it matter? In regards to the spring, I dont know if its too much stress to keep it like that for a while right. The barrel looks corroded, or as if it has glue, or laquer residue on it. Its surely in need for a clean. The ram rod I have now doesnt go far enough so I have to go get one, and I need the right size brush. Or should I not use the wired brush inside of the bore, You mentioned before not to use it on the barrels finish of coarse, but what about inside?

    Thanks for the help man I appreciate it.
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2010
  6. rammed

    rammed New Member

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    Don't use a bore brush. You will be able to push it down the barrel but the fibers on the brush will lock it into place when you try to pull it out. You need a cleaning rod with a jag on the end to hold a cloth cleaning patch. Use hot soapy water and pump the patch up and down the bore to clean it.

    To uncock the hammer, Hold the lock with the works facing you with the hammer up. On the right side there is a small lever. That is the sear. The trigger pushes the sear up and releases the hammer. Cock the hammer completely and hold it with one finger while lifting the sear. This will release the hammer so you can let it down. There is really no reason to tear the lock down. Just lub it with light oil.

    To remove the drum from the barrel, you will see two flats on the side of the drum. Use the correct size wrench to unscrew the drum.

    To remove the breech plug at the back of the barrel, put the barrel in a vice. Pad the vice jaws so you don't damage the barrel and use a wrench on the plug.

    Be show you soak the drum and breech plug with liquid wrench or something similar first .

    Good luck

    Doug
  7. Lowsonoma21

    Lowsonoma21 New Member

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  8. rammed

    rammed New Member

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    That link does not bring up your pics.
  9. Lowsonoma21

    Lowsonoma21 New Member

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  10. rammed

    rammed New Member

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    Good pics. I don't see the R.E.Davis trademark on the lock so it may be original. What are you planning to do now?
  11. deadin

    deadin Well-Known Member

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    rammed,
    I have two Ohio Half Stocks that you have to set the trigger before you cock the hammer. There is no half-cock notch. At first I thought that something was wrong with the lock, but have learned since that this is not unusual with some original Ohio rifles.

    One of my rifles is unmarked and the other was made by a 'smith named William Kail from Tuscarawas County, Ohio. The lock on each is a "store-bought" lock marked "Riddle" and as far as I can discover probably came from a supplier in Chicago. Kail was a farmer/gunsmith from the 1850's thru the 1880-90's. (Farmed in the Spring/Summer/Fall and made a few rifles in the Winter.) The Kail is .29 or .30 caliber which is unusually small for the period.
  12. Lowsonoma21

    Lowsonoma21 New Member

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    Hmmm. Well I didn't expect that. If it's original I will be getting in touch with some
    people in town here, or maybe someone on here has threads on how to
    restore/refinish. I'm going to re-search a lot more before I take action. Im going to make sure it gets restored right, and keep it for some time. I was planning on refinishing it and holding on to it for a bit, even when I thought it was a "junker". I will let you know what I do. My first shot is to clean that barrel. Since the barrel is not original, maybe I should just replace it as apposed to clean it. Then again I like the vintage style look, and the fact that it has been handled, but still looks good. All will be taken into consideration. The stock could use a touch up as well. I want to get some good brass cleaner and shine it. I don't want it to shine brand new no marks tho, like I said I like the vintage look. I will see how or who can get the lock shined up with out damaging the art. If you have any pointers feel free to join in, I'm always open for ideas!

    Thanks a lot for the help Doug I appreciate it.
  13. rammed

    rammed New Member

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    Deadin

    The explanation on the set trigger I used was for a modern set trigger. With those you can set the gun off by pulling the front trigger without setting the rear trigger. Some old original locks did not have a "fly" on the tumbler or a half cock position. The fly would cam the sear past the half cock notch when using a set trigger. By eliminating the half cock notch you didn't need the fly. The set trigger also has fewer parts on old originals.

    Your rifles sound real nice. :D I have two that work the way you described. You have to cock them before you can set the trigger. 30 cal sounds right for an original that hasn't been with. Mine are 32 and 38 cal. Small cal is where the term squirrel rifle came from.

    Lowsonoma21

    You don't have to restore anything on the lock. It looks fine and is in good shape just lub it.
  14. Lowsonoma21

    Lowsonoma21 New Member

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    I just ripped appart my friends mossberg 500, stripped it, stained n finished it to a darker older style finish, and painted the metal pieces flat black, it looks really good. Im going to get my old boss to carve a bear on the left side, and his name on the other side. I will post pics of it. Just a fun project to do.

    It inspired me to refinish mine. So im stripping it, and finishing it all tonight. Not going to paint the barrel, just remove the rust, and oil it. Hopefully polish up that metal, I have a bunch of polish, but if needed I'll run to the store to get some for the brass.
  15. Lowsonoma21

    Lowsonoma21 New Member

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