New to the forum here and looking forward to spending time here. I come to you with a "urgent" question. I came across 3 guns today but these are not my field at all. I seek you help to see if they are correct and if they have any flaws or red flags. Especially the Colt Dragoon and the pin fire revolving rifle ( I have no idea what this thing is at all). I can buy all 3 but have no idea if the prices are any good.
Thanks to anyone who can help out. I'll start with the Colt for sale for around 550 EUR.
I am going to move this thread over to the Ask the Pros & What's It Worth forum, but you might want to think about separating them into three different posts.
I am sure there are people who can and will answer your questions, but a little time might be needed.
Thank you. I wasn't sure where to post this especially considering I have no idea what the pinfire rifle exactly is. I have them on hold for now to do some research.
Welcome Sebastian. I'm not going to be of much help I fear. The Colt looks like an honest old Colt with a Liege proof mark. Others will no doubt be along who are actually knowledgeable about it.
The second....it's appears to have been cleaned up entirely too much to have any amount of collector value in this country. And, as you are no doubt aware, there some kind of piece missing from the bottom of the pistol grip.
Hello thank you for the warm welcome. Would the Liege mark on the cylinder be an indication that its a replacement? The colt is my main focus of the guns on hold so far I always wanted one since I was achild but could never afford one. I did feel that the pinfire revolving rifle was a bit overdone on the finish ,especially the wood so I fear you may be correct. A friend of mine is interested in that rifle if the price is ok.
It does look similar except for the cleaning rod. From the little research I could do today it may be a Peabody made for the swiss market judging by the U (which may mean umgeandert, converted in german) and the large Swiss cross on the side the serial number would be in the correct place I think.
I believe the Colt is a Belgium made " Brevete " a gun made under Colt patent, not made in Hartford. Legally made in Belgium using Colts Patent, hence it is a Belgium Colt { if there is such a category ? } and does not draw the same money as would a Hartford or London Colt.
Botom to top:
The Peabody. What's the caliber? Lots of countries used the rifle. If it's in .41 Swiss rimfire
that would be a clue. Canada, Romania, Spain, Britian, The Turks---the list is long of countries
that used it. That's about all I know--except that I want one!
Pinfire rifle. Never seen one before---but it looks like a rifle version of a Belgian pinfire, and
not a high end one. Rough finish, visible machining marks, screw heads sitting on top of metal instead of being countersunk flush. Value to me would be as a curiosity--I don't own anything I can't shoot.
The "Colt" revolver. I'm thinking Brevete. A licensed by Colt copy, or maybe they didn't ask permission--but a copy of a 1860 Army, made in Belgium. I'm not even going to guess value.
There are people who collect Brevete firearms---I'm not one of them.
Its been a long day of research but this is what I have gathered on the colt. I can't say much about the calibre of the Peabody since I didn't check, but I decides to drop the pinfire revolver/rifle since I agree with the statements that it has been ruined by excessive "restoration".
This leaves me with the "colt" which remains a puzzle to me. The proof marks as stated by Hrf and others are from Belgium. now from what I have researched is that indeed model 1860 army colts have been made in Belgium after the 19th century but carry the centaur mark and a made in Belgium stamp on the bottom of the grip ,in addition to the LEG mark but with a crown on top instead, of the LEG mark with the regular star. Could this be a early model for the civilian/European market? Judging by the early marks and remnants of the colt patent markings on the frame and lack of newer leige marks found on later produced brevet colts? I am thinking of offering 500 if he throws in the bullet mold pictured in the thumbnails. The gun leaves to many uncertainties for a higher amount.
From what I have tested the timing and spring tension are fine but the hammer is a bit loose.
They are correctly called " Brevete Colts". When Mr. Colt took out his patents in Belgium he knew the Belgium law. The patented item had to be manufactured in Belgium with in two years or the patent would expire. This is why there are Belgium Colts. They were made under approval of Colt, and there are Patterson's, Navies and Army models. These guns are all identical to the American Colts except for the markings. The Belgium makers were hoping for orders, however Colt never set up large scale manufacturing in Belgium. They are still desirable but not nearly as valuable as the original Colts.
Don't mean to confuse things on the Colt. The original contemporary 1860 replicas were Belgium made and proofed. Those Belgian made replicas appeared to be good quality. Waves of Italian replicas followed.
I seriously question the age of the Colt. There are no signs of age at all. It has a sick cold blue look. The edges are all a bit too crisp for a gun of that age and with no original finish left. Zero pitting on the gun, even in the area around the nipples. The trigger is certainly not old as it is way too thick. Old triggers were very thin. Screws look wrong as well. Serial number font looks wrong fro an 1800s gun. I am thinking Italian replica with fake Belgian marks to add interest especially since the gun is over there.
Middle gun is just junk.
I am thinking Swiss on the Peabody, here is a link to a good site on them.
Interesting. Defarb a Italian gun, make it sorta kinda look like a Brevete Colt. The London
and Hartford guns have been micro-examined, and a wrong screwhead or font would be
pointed out immediately. Belgian gun? Lots of variations, darned little
documentation---something "off" a bit could be explained as normal differences in
manufacturing. Sneaky Ba$tiches.
It is not a Hartford made Colt nor a London made Colt. It was made in Belgium and is a Belgium gun. It was made legally IAW Colts patent drawings that he filed with the Belgium patent house ( or what ever it was called ) and with his knowledge. He really didn't need Belgium manufacturing because the Mexican war and the Civil war bumped up his business, as a result he did not place any large orders. The later gun the Centaur, is a modern replica that is highly sought by the black powder comumity because of its quality . The Centaur is not a Italian made gun, it is Belgium made.
I believe the pinfire rifle started life as a pistol. Someone converted it, and did an outstanding job, in my opinion, on the wood.
It's like this. It started life as a Model 29 Smith, 44 magnum. Someone converted it to a rifle. Why? 'Cause he wanted to, I guess.
Anyway. That pinfire should have no collector value, as a pinfire revolver, both because of the conversion and because of the bad condition of the gun. But as a "neat as hell gun", if you think that is worth 600 euro to you, jump on it. I doubt you will find another one.
Thank you for the replies. I'll pass on all guns. I sent an email to a Colt dealer and he too said it is probably a replica made in the last 60 to 70 years. So I am not taking the risk. Too bad, I always wanted that type of Colt since I was a kid. I can find them for a reasonable price on *********, armslist and guns international but no one is willing to ship internationally for some reason.
Ain't life grand, if you have a dollar some one is going to try and steal it. Colts now are like Well Fargo shotguns, sniper rifles and German SS items, there are more of these items now floating around than ever came out of a factory. Now Mosin Nagents { with phony Finish Markings } and Mauser 98K's are showing up with counterfeit markings. Go figure!
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