FirearmsForum Members,
I have the opportunity to buy a few antique firearms from a family friend who is selling them for retirement (her husband passed away a few years ago). I am proficient with my modern weapons but lacking in the antique department. So I ask you for help in identifying and valuing two pistols and a rifle that have been giving me issues. I have done a fair amount of research on both and hope to confirm or deny what I've found.
The first is a Beatus Beringer pistol, circa 1850s from France. Has Beringer engraved on the right side of the pistol, just behind the pistol and above the trigger well (see photos). I found information on the builder but can't determine the value or confirm that it is a Beringer (although there are no other markings). It is missing a metal accent on the right side.
The second is a 4 barrel pepperbox pistol with the markings "IEH" on it. I found that IEH was a builder by the name of Johan Engholm from Sweden. That's all I have on this pistol.
The third and final firearm is a rifle, which I have limited information on. I have not seen the rifle and the family friend could not find any markings on it besides that "AM" is etched into the buttstock. See photos.
My first thought that the Beringer pistol was an obvious trademark end-around on the Henry Deringer pistol--from which it was obviously copied. Derringer with two "r"s is the most common derivative, but then I found that Beatus Beringer of Paris and St. Etienne, France worked at 6 rue de Coq St. Honore from 1835-1869. So, I suspect already having the name Beringer was a convenient coincidence for the maker of your gun. I have nothing to add to what you've found other than I suspect it is worth a bit less than the real McCoy, although it does appear to be a quality firearm rather than a cheap knockoff.
The rifle is of military origin--given its general style and sling swivels. We would need detailed pictures of the lock, muzzle, markings, and a nice full length shot would be nice.
I had looked at the Deringer Pistol but not in-depth. After looking at some photos this morning this Beringer is an obvious copy of Deringer's design. Since it is a copy and missing that metal accent, I'm thinking in the $500-$600 range. The real things go for $4-5K and good copies for $1,500.
I realize now that the photo of that rifle isn't nearly enough to identify it given the various firearms used at that time. I requested some more photos and will post them here. Thanks for the help so far.
I think your valuation of the Beringer pistol is about right given its condition. Because it isn't engraved, the missing the silver wedge plate ("metal accent" )would be fairly easy to replace by someone with patience and reasonable skill with a file. You are also missing the wedge. Dixiegunworks may have these parts are those that can be filed to fit.
Buffalochip.....thanks for the help. What's the difference between the silver wedge plate and the wedge?
Any idea what the other 4 barrel pistol my be worth? I found only one instance of a Pepperbox pistol being sold at auction....http://www.rockislandauction.com/viewitem/aid/1020/lid/600.....the lot went for $2,185. It appears that one of the pistols is very similar to the one I posted here. I'm guessing $500-600 alone.
Buffalochip.....thanks for the help. What's the difference between the silver wedge plate and the wedge?
Any idea what the other 4 barrel pistol my be worth? I found only one instance of a Pepperbox pistol being sold at auction....http://www.rockislandauction.com/viewitem/aid/1020/lid/600.....the lot went for $2,185. It appears that one of the pistols is very similar to the one I posted here. I'm guessing $500-600 alone.
The wedge buffalochip refers to is the flat cross-key that holds the barrel to stock. In your lefthand view, it appears to be missing but the less clear right hand view looks like it might be there and just partly out? And by the way, if you remove the barrel there may be Belgian or other proofmarks on underside if it's a foreign copy.
It appears yours is missing the collar-like "nipple guard" which was probably meant to keep the caps from falling off the out-of battery barrels, or being set off by accidental bumps. Whether or not this type with hand-turned barrels would bring as much as the more common double action bar-hammer type is questionable.
Buffalochip.....thanks for the help. What's the difference between the silver wedge plate and the wedge?
Any idea what the other 4 barrel pistol my be worth? I found only one instance of a Pepperbox pistol being sold at auction....http://www.rockislandauction.com/viewitem/aid/1020/lid/600.....the lot went for $2,185. It appears that one of the pistols is very similar to the one I posted here. I'm guessing $500-600 alone.
See the piece of metal sticking out of that squared-off hole on the left forearm? That's the wedge. The metal piece surrounding the squared hole is the wedge plate. See the squared-off loop underneath the barrel? When the barrel is in the stock, that loop goes down into a notch. This makes the loop line up with the square hole in both the right and left wedge plates. Then you push the wedge into one of the holes. It goes through the hole, through the loop, and the end sticks out the other hole, and holds the gun together. So you are missing both the right-hand wedge plate AND the wedge.
[QUOTE So you are missing both the right-hand wedge plate AND the wedge.[/QUOTE]
Ok, I understand now. Haven't dealt with these old pistols before. I'm assuming a custom wedge and wedge plate would need to be made if I wanted to semi-restore this pistol to a "complete" condition?
Don't know if I'd go so far as to say "custom wedge and wedgeplate". Dixie sells both parts, cheaply, and they should be fairly easy to "customize" to fit your gun.
Fatstrat, I was wondering the same thing, an 1841 Mississippi. From the angle we can see in the picture it looks as if the barrel might have been bobbed. Better pictures would certainly help. Here's a bit of info and some pictures that can be clicked on to enlarge...
From looking at the links that you and Fatstrat posted, the rifle in question does look very similar to a 1841 Mississippi Rifle. Though, I did notice that this rifle is missing the brass patch box and butt plate that the rifles in the picture have. One of the articles on this rifle did mention that some soldiers removed the brass plate to sell for money.
I will hopefully have more photos of this rifle in a day or two. We can then determine exactly what this rifle is. Thanks for the help so far.
From looking at the links that you and Fatstrat posted, the rifle in question does look very similar to a 1841 Mississippi Rifle. Though, I did notice that this rifle is missing the brass patch box and butt plate that the rifles in the picture have. One of the articles on this rifle did mention that some soldiers removed the brass plate to sell for money.
I will hopefully have more photos of this rifle in a day or two. We can then determine exactly what this rifle is. Thanks for the help so far.
Guys - Attached are a couple new pictures of the rifle. Now before you start knocking me about the photos (I did not take them, I'm 2 states away) realize the owner of the gun is neither camera or gun savvy. I have already asked for better photos (this would be the third set) and she understands why as these were taken in low light.
If theses photos help in any way, let me know. If not, the other photos will be posted as soon as she sends them. I also asked her to look on the lock for any information.
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