hey folks

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Tony22-250, Sep 2, 2009.

  1. Tony22-250

    Tony22-250 New Member

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    Snellville, GA
    hey just dropin by and sayin hey and i have a question to ask. sorry i havent been on here often if at all but i have been very busy with work and other activities.

    My question is what exactly constitutes as Armor piercing ammunition for rifles defined by the US govt?
  2. Suicide*Ride

    Suicide*Ride New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2009
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    Golden, Colorado
    Jeeze.... who left the door open? Where you been?!! :rolleyes:

    other activities = gaming

    I had a feeling once you got your gaming computer up & running, that you'd forget about us TFF folks... :p

    Re: your AP rd question... why not just hit google?? :confused:

    SR :)
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2009
  3. artabr

    artabr New Member

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    Mar 3, 2008
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    New Iberia, Louisiana
    http://yarchive.net/gun/politics/armorpiercing.html

    From: jbardwel@cassandra.cair.du.edu (JAMES O. BARDWELL )
    Newsgroups: rec.guns
    Subject: Armor Piercing Ammunition
    Date: 11 Sep 1994 09:14:36 -0400

    Below is my revised article on federal regulation of armor
    piercing (ap) ammunition. The Crime Bill re-wrote the definition.
    Does anyone know what brands of ammo were meant to be banned by the
    new sub-paragraph (ii)? I presume it is meant to cover the handgun
    equivalents of Barnes Solids; solid copper bullets. But I am not
    aware of any such ammo. Solids for handguns made out of most other
    metals would have been banned by the superseded langauge.

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    The definition of ap ammo is at 18 USC 921(a)(17):
    "(B) The term `armor piercing ammunition' means-

    (i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and
    which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other
    substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass,
    bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or

    (ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and
    intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25
    percent of the total weight of the projectile.

    (C) The term `armor piercing ammunition' does not include shotgun shot
    required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting
    purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile
    which the Secretary finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting
    purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Secretary
    finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge
    used in an oil and gas well perforating device."

    [Secretary means Secretary of the Treasury, in reality determinations
    are delegated to the Technology Branch of ATF]

    Note the following things from the definition:

    1) The definition was changed as part of the 1994 Crime Bill,
    primarily by the addition of bullets intended to be used in a
    handgun whose jacket is more than 25% of their weight. The previous
    language is at the end of this article, for comparison purposes.

    2) AP ammo is the bullets ONLY, not the loaded ammo, although ATF has
    identified some AP ammo by the loaded ammo, not projectiles, for the
    information of FFL dealers, who are not supposed to transfer AP ammo.
    #From this it follows that loading the bullets identified above does not
    constitute "making" AP ammo; making the bullets themselves does.

    3) USE - The bullet must be able to be used in a handgun. Rather than
    construing this to mean regular handgun calibers, ATF construes this to
    mean any caliber for which a handgun has been made, including handguns
    in rifle calibers, like .308 Winchester, and 7.62x39, for purposes of
    bullets covered by (B)(i). Thus bullets suitable for these calibers,
    as well as other rifle calibers for which handguns have been made (at
    least commercially made) which are constructed as described below would
    be AP ammo.
    However bullets that fall into the AP definition under (B)(ii), because
    their jackets comprise more than 25% of their weight (solid copper bullets?)
    must be intended for use in a handgun, not just be able to be used in a
    handgun.

    4) CONSTRUCTION - The bullet must either have a core made ENTIRELY out
    of one or more of the listed metals, or be full metal jacket type
    bullets with a jacket comprising more that 25% of its
    weight. Thus SS109/M855 .223 bullets are not covered,
    because their core is only partly steel, and partly lead. Lead
    is not a listed metal, and bullets with cores made partly out of lead
    are OK. ATF has expressly ruled that SS109/M855 bullets are not
    covered.

    5) Hardness of the bullet is irrelevant.

    6) Ability to actually penetrate any kind of soft body armor is irrelevant.

    If you are NOT a (FFL) licensee under the Gun Control Act (an individual):
    ok to OWN AP ammo
    ok to SELL AP ammo
    ok to BUY AP ammo
    ok to SHOOT AP ammo
    NOT ok to MAKE AP ammo (18 USC 922(a)(7))
    NOT ok to IMPORT AP ammo (18 USC 922(a)(7))
    The only persons who can make AP ammo are holders of a type 10
    FFL, also needed to make destructive devices, and ammunition for
    destructive devices. The only persons who can import AP ammo
    are holders of a type 11 FFL, who can also import DD's and ammo
    for DD's. The FFL's cost $1000 a year.

    If you are a licensed manufacturer or importer:
    NOT ok to SELL or DELIVER AP ammo (18 USC 922(a)(8)
    (with exceptions for making/importing for law enforcement, export, or R&D).
    No additional restrictions, except as listed below. This applies
    not only to holders of type 10 and 11 FFL's, but also type 7 and 8
    FFL's (makers and importers of guns other than DD's), as well as
    holders of a type 06 FFL (maker of ammo other than for DD's).

    If you are a licensed dealer, manufacturer, importer or collector:
    NOT ok to SELL or DELIVER AP ammo without keeping a record of the sale, similar
    to the bound book record for firearm sales. (18 USC 922(b)(5)).
    No additional restriction, except on dealers as noted below.
    The records required to kept on sale or delivery of AP ammo need only
    be kept for two years, not twenty years, like firearm records. See
    27 CFR 178.121, and 27 CFR 178.125.

    18 USC 923(e) allows the revocation of a dealer's FFL
    for willfully transferring AP ammo, with exceptions for sales to law
    enforcement and so on. This is dealers only; holders of a collector
    FFL (type 03) may willfully transfer AP ammo if they wish, but must comply
    with the record keeping noted above.

    Some states also regulate or prohibit armor piercing ammo, and these
    laws may bear no relation to how the federal law works. For state
    laws, check locally. The following states regulate AP ammo,
    to my knowledge, but the definition and sort of
    regulation may (and likely does) deviate widely from the federal
    approach. NV, OK, RI, VA, AL, NY, NJ, IL, IN, KS, LA, MN, FL, PA.

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    The former statute: 18 USC 921(a)(17)(B) - "The term 'armor
    piercing ammunition' means a projectile or projectile core which
    may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding
    the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination
    of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or
    depleted uranium. Such term does not include shotgun shot required
    by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes,
    a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile
    which the Secretary finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting
    purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the
    Secretary finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes,
    including a charge used in an oil and gas well perforating device."


    _____________________________________

    Hope this helps. ;) :D



    Art
  4. Tony22-250

    Tony22-250 New Member

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    Location:
    Snellville, GA
    yeah art i read that but to me that is for hand gun ammo only thats why i said RIFLE ammo is there a gray area when it comes to that or is that just me?
  5. 4EvrLearning

    4EvrLearning New Member

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    Feb 27, 2009
    Messages:
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    Location:
    Left Coast
    *interrupts the thread to say* "Hey, Tony, good to see you posting again! We were worried about ya!" *carry on!* :)
  6. artabr

    artabr New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2008
    Messages:
    7,859
    Location:
    New Iberia, Louisiana
    This link has a little bit more concerning rifle ammo(in bold text). This is The Federal Law, what is it that you want to know?


    II. Laws
    G. Federal Fireams Laws
    1. Federal Law and Armor Piercing Ammunition
    by James O. Bardwell (bardwell@netcom.com)

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    WHAT IS AP AMMO, BY FEDERAL LAW?

    The definition of AP ammo is at 18 USC sec. 921(a)(17):

    "(B) The term `armor piercing ammunition' means-

    (i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and
    which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other
    substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass,
    bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or

    (ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and
    intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25
    percent of the total weight of the projectile.

    (C) The term `armor piercing ammunition' does not include shotgun shot
    required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting
    purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile
    which the Secretary finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting
    purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Secretary
    finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge
    used in an oil and gas well perforating device."

    [Secretary means Secretary of the Treasury, in reality determinations
    are delegated to the Technology Branch of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco
    and Firearms (ATF)]

    Note the following things from the definition:

    1) The definition was changed as part of the 1994 Crime Bill (9/14/94),
    primarily by the addition of "full jacketed" bullets intended to be used
    in a handgun whose jacket is more than 25% of their weight. The previous
    language is at the end of this article, for comparison purposes.

    2) AP ammo is the bullets ONLY, not the loaded ammo, although ATF has
    identified some AP ammo by the loaded ammo, not projectiles, for the
    information of FFL dealers, who are not supposed to "willfully"
    transfer AP ammo.
    >From this it follows that loading the bullets identified above into
    completed rounds does not constitute "making" AP ammo; making the
    bullets themselves does.

    3) USE - The bullet must be able to be used in a handgun. Rather than
    construing this to mean regular handgun calibers, ATF construes this to
    mean any caliber for which a handgun has been made, including handguns
    in rifle calibers, like .308 Winchester, and 7.62x39, for purposes of
    bullets covered by (B)(i). Thus bullets suitable for these calibers,
    as well as other rifle calibers for which handguns have been made (at
    least commercially made) which are constructed as described below would
    or should be AP ammo.
    However bullets that fall into the AP definition under (B)(ii), because
    their jackets comprise more than 25% of their weight (solid copper bullets?)
    must be intended for use in a handgun, not just be able to be used in a
    handgun.

    4) CONSTRUCTION - The bullet must either have a core made ENTIRELY out
    of one or more of the listed metals, or be a full jacketed type bullet
    with a jacket comprising more that 25% of its weight. Thus SS109/M855
    .223 (5.56mm) bullets would not be covered, because their core is only partly
    steel, and partly lead. Lead is not a listed metal, and bullets with
    cores made partly out of lead are OK. ATF has expressly ruled that
    SS109/M855 bullets are not covered.

    5) Hardness of the bullet is irrelevant.

    6) Ability to actually penetrate any kind of soft body armor is irrelevant.

    ATF has listed the following rounds as AP ammo:

    All KTW, ARCANE, and THV ammo.
    Czech made 9mm Para. with steel core.
    German made 9mm Para. with steel core.
    MSC .25 ACP with brass bullet.
    BLACK STEEL armor and metal piercing ammunition.
    7.62mm NATO AP and SLAP.
    PMC ULTRAMAG with brass bullet (but not copper).
    OMNISHOCK .38 Special with steel core.
    7.62x39 ammo with steel core bullets.

    ATF has specifically exempted the following rounds:

    5.56 SS109 and M855 NATO rounds, with a steel penetrator tip.
    .30-06 M2 AP ammo.


    WHAT FEDERAL RESTRICTIONS ARE PLACED ON AP AMMO?

    If you are NOT a (FFL) licensee under the Gun Control Act (an individual):
    It is: ok to OWN AP ammo
    ok to SELL AP ammo
    ok to BUY AP ammo
    ok to SHOOT AP ammo
    NOT ok to MAKE AP ammo (18 USC sec. 922(a)(7))
    NOT ok to IMPORT AP ammo (18 USC sec. 922(a)(7))
    The only persons who can make AP ammo are holders of a type 10
    FFL, also needed to make destructive devices, and ammunition for
    destructive devices. The only persons who can import AP ammo
    are holders of a type 11 FFL, who can also import DD's and ammo
    for DD's. The FFL's cost $1000 a year.

    If you are a licensed manufacturer or importer:
    NOT ok to SELL or DELIVER AP ammo (18 USC sec. 922(a)(8)
    (with exceptions for making/importing for law enforcement, export, or R&D).
    No additional restrictions, except as listed below. This applies
    not only to holders of type 10 and 11 FFL's, but also type 7 and 8
    FFL's (makers and importers of guns other than DD's), as well as
    holders of a type 06 FFL (maker of ammo other than for DD's).

    If you are a licensed dealer, manufacturer, importer or collector:
    NOT ok to SELL or DELIVER AP ammo without keeping a record of the sale, similar
    to the bound book record for firearm sales. (18 USC sec. 922(b)(5)).
    No additional restriction, except on dealers as noted below.
    The records required to kept on sale or delivery of AP ammo need only
    be kept for two years, not twenty years, like firearm records. See
    27 CFR sec. 178.121, and 27 CFR sec. 178.125.

    18 USC sec. 923(e) allows the revocation of a dealer's FFL
    for willfully transferring AP ammo, with exceptions for sales to law
    enforcement and so on. This is dealers only; holders of a collector
    FFL (type 03) may willfully transfer AP ammo if they wish, but must comply
    with the record keeping noted above.

    Some states also regulate or prohibit armor piercing ammo, and these
    laws may bear no relation to how the federal law works. For state
    laws, check locally. The following states regulate AP ammo,
    to my knowledge, but the definition of AP ammo and sort of
    regulation may (and likely does) deviate widely from the federal
    approach. NV, OK, RI, VA, AL, NY, NJ, IL, IN, KS, LA, MN, FL, PA, TX, NC.

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    The former statute: 18 USC 921(a)(17)(B) - "The term 'armor
    piercing ammunition' means a projectile or projectile core which
    may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding
    the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination
    of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or
    depleted uranium. Such term does not include shotgun shot required
    by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes,
    a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile
    which the Secretary finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting
    purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the
    Secretary finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes,
    including a charge used in an oil and gas well perforating device."

    _________________________________________________________

    As I stated at the top, this is The Federal Law (18 USC sec. 921(a)(17)
    concerning AP ammo. Is there something specific that you are looking for?

    This is actuality a much more detailed discription of the law than what is in the offical Department of the Treasury, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco And Firearms, "Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide, 2000"
    # ATF P 5300.4 (01-00), that I have sitting on the desk in front of me.


    Art
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2009
  7. gdmoody

    gdmoody Moderator Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2007
    Messages:
    9,018
    Location:
    Northeast Georgia
    Tony, glad to see you back, even if it is just for a quick one question and gone again.
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