higher pressure loads for the .45colt for the taurus judge

Discussion in 'Centerfire Pistols & Revolvers' started by focusmaniaczx3, Feb 17, 2011.

  1. focusmaniaczx3

    focusmaniaczx3 Member

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    i bought a judge awhile back and while i love the gun i was quite disappointed with the amount of thump that the .45 colt packs. so i have been wondering. if i were to do my own .45 colt loads how hot could i make them safely? just based on the amount of recoil difference between the 410 shot shells and the .45 i think it would be plenty safe to load them hotter because the shot shells have alot more recoil and therefore it would stand to reason are higher pressure loads. i tried to call and ask taurus about this but they just ran me around the ringer and never gave me a strait answer. i just want to try to get the bullet velocity up as much as i can because i have been toying with the idea of hunting with it.
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2011
  2. Boris

    Boris Former Guest

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    The 45LC and 410 operate at the same (very close) chamber pressure. I dont think its all about the recoil the firearm can handle. It probably has more to do with the amount of chamber pressure the firearm is designed to contain safely.

    In a defensive shoot situation a round like the Winchester PDX1 225 grain will have more than enough thump to protect you.

    Just me but I would not shoot a round of a higher pressure than the firearm was designed to contain safely.
  3. bayhawk2

    bayhawk2 New Member

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    I load for the Judge and it is not designed for rounds above
    max loads in the reloading books.If you look at the Judge it
    has a medium frame.Not a heavy frame like a Ruger.I
    actually only load about a medium load.I personally got the Judge
    for the .410 loads.An excellent round is the Federal handgun .410
    000 buckshot.Find it at WalMart.
    Remington long Range #6's are a good shot shell..
  4. focusmaniaczx3

    focusmaniaczx3 Member

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    im thinking i might be better off trying to contact taurus again because im starting to like the feeling of getting smoke blown up my rump...

    levergunner im very ashamed of you. you are talking about the raging judge magnum. that is a very very super beefed up version of the standard judge. if someone tried to fire a 454 casul through a standard judge it would most CERTAINLY blow up in their face causing serious injury if not death.

    boris... im pretty disappointed in you too. your info about a 45lc and 410 operating at close to the same chamber pressure might be accurate because that is the one bit of information that i was looking to FIND and that i dont already know. except it seems counter-intuitive. lets see if i can explain why it seems that way in my mind so at least if i am wrong someone can explain why. 410 buck shot which weighs the same or more than the 45 bullet has a higher muzzle velocity than the 45 so therefore stands to reason has more pressure. now if that is because of it being a shotgun round then please explain the difference. my method of feeling the difference in recoil should be pretty accurate too. with every action creating an equal and opposite reaction and all of that. basically the harder the projectile leaves the barrel the harder the gun hits your hand in the opposite direction.

    but what REALLY disappointed me is the fact that you started talking about SELF DEFENSE loads... really? at what point am i going to need a bullet that will go through a perp, then through my door, through the woods, into town and into the old folks home killing 10 retirees standing in line waiting on their liver pills? i clearly said i want to HUNT with the load if it can be done! if the judge is being used for personal defense against people it gets loaded with the specially designed 4 pelet shotgun rounds by federal or remington. winchester has a new supreme elite round out for it now too that looks way nasty that i need to try out soon too.

    now im sorry im coming across as a bit of a dick but geeze. im not a spring chicken, i know not to exceed the limits of the gun. this is why i am asking and trying to get info from as many sources as possible. i am NOT doing this because i want more recoil. im doing this because i want more velocity from my .45's when i go hunting with this gun. i packed the judge as a sidearm on a deerhunt last year and when a deer came up behind my stand it was too close for me to get a good bead with the rifle without scaring it so i popped it with the judge with a .45lc. i was damn lucky to have hit the doe square in the heart because it ended up not penetrating NEARLY as deep as i expected. now im DAMN good with my judge at shooting paper and coyotes from a good distance which is why i want to pistol hunt with it for deer next year but i WANT more bullet velocity if i can safely have it.

    so i will rephrase my question...
    in a taurus judge how much barrel pressure does a standard 2.5 inch 410 shot shell make. and in a taurus judge how much barrel pressure does a factory load .45LC make? if i can have these two bits of information i can extrapolate exactly how much a .45lc can be loaded to make the same barrel pressure as the shotgun load and then contact taurus with that information. those pricks like to make you do all the work for them and then they will finally give you an intelligent answer... the pricks from taurus i mean. none of you guys are pricks, i love this forum, hehe. sorry for the book and rant at the beginning. after being on the phone with taurus for half the day again with them acting like they are walking forest gump through how to disarm a nuclear bomb when all he wants is a box of chocolate is very annoying. especially when they never once gave me a yes or no answer one way or another about hardly anything. getting talked to like im an idiot again in here was just too much for my anti-rant to handle i guess.
  5. CampingJosh

    CampingJosh Well-Known Member

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    Taurus will NEVER tell you that it is safe to load beyond SAAMI specs. Sorry, man, but they have lawyers, and they simply won't tell you to do that, even if it is possible to do it in a perfectly safe manner.

    SAAMI lists maximum average pressure of a 3" .410 as 135 CUP. (http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/209.pdf page 9)
    SAAMI lists maximum average pressure of a .45 Colt as 144 CUP. (http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/205.pdf page 13)
    Despite your felt recoil, chamber pressure is really not much different.

    The .45 Colt was the most powerful handgun round in production until the .357 Magnum, which was AFTER the introduction of the .45 ACP. It's not really an anemic cartridge; if you're not happy with it, you're probably asking it to do something it was never intended to do.

    If you're looking for an extreme load for your judge, Buffalo Bore makes very hot load. Something a little over double the foot pounds of a standard load. Maybe your best bet. Like Taurus, I won't tell you to do anything different than the published manuals.
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2011
  6. focusmaniaczx3

    focusmaniaczx3 Member

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    thank you thank you thank you. THANK YOU! i dont care if it wasnt the answer i wanted to hear but at least it was a strait answer and you obviously took the time to process the lion's share of the information i put out there. like i said im just looking for a load to use specifically for hunting deer. thank you for the pressure info. ill see if i can find the pressure for the 2.5inch 410 in one of those links you provided.

    once again, i cant say it enough, im NOT going to do it if im not sure it cant be done safely.

    that buffalo bore ammo is right along the lines of what im looking for. actually thats more than i was hoping for. now to call taurus and as them if i can fire THAT bullet through THAT gun... this ought to be fun. thanks again man.
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2011
  7. carver

    carver Moderator

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    From what I've been able to gather, since I don't load for the .410, is that both the .410, and the .45LC opperate at around 14,000psi. The .410, in 2 1/2", is shooting a slug at around 210 grains, or so. The .45LC is shooting a slug at around 230-250 grains. These two loads are very close, the very reason that you can shoot both in the same gun! My suggestion is to not try going over the posted presures for the .45LC, your gun wasn't designed for higher presures.

    Deer hunting with the Judge; I will tell anyone who wants to hunt deer with a hand gun that you limited in distance by one rule: Your max range with the gun you have chosen is that distance in which you can keep all of your shots on an 8" paper plate. If you can't keep all your shoots on the plate, then get closer!
  8. polishshooter

    polishshooter Active Member

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    For anything you want to know about pressures, loads ANYTHING to do with a shotgun or shotgun load go to ballisticproducts.com.

    I have been dealing with them for over 20 years, maybe longer, and I would have to say 90% of all my knowledge about shotgun loads originally came from them, their research, one of their specialized manuals, and the rest from MY experiments.

    I was heavily into developing my own Slugn buck, buckn ball and bucknbird and even BucknBallnbird loads:p before "duplex" loads were even thought of by modern ammo manufacturers, and they were a BIG help. They will provide you with data and insight to ANY conceivable use for ANY guage shotgun shell, for use in just about ANY condition, for ANY game or defense, in ANY temperature or atmospheric conditions (it DOES matter in a shotgun shell!)

    There is a quantifiable difference comparing any rifle or pistol ammo performance in a fixed metallic case to any shotgun round in a plastic or paper hull. So much that even the nomenclature is different...for instance when you talk shotguns the technical term for the projectile is "Ejecta" for just one small example.

    But seriously, check them out, they are great to work with, WILL answer your shotgun related questions, and probably have a manual by now for specific loads just for the Judge.

    That will give you at least one side of the equation.

    For the other, I don't know, but the .45LC in virtually all commercial loadings has been adequate for deer at reasonable ranges with just lead 250 gr bullets even since the Black powder days, so much so I plan on getting one someday just for that use, and even for the little that I have shot someone elses Judge, I would think it would be adequate with any :hot' load within reason.
  9. focusmaniaczx3

    focusmaniaczx3 Member

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    yep yep. thanks carver! this is why i want to hunt with the judge because its become the single handgun in my stash that im the best with. i cant even shoot my glock as accurately as i can the judge. 4-5 inch groups at 25 yards are the best i can do with the judge just standing there but if i can prop the gun, like i would likely be doing hunting i can group them much better. i shot a coyote from about 60 yards with it about 3 weeks ago while it was on the run. i think i can put that one off to luck more than anything tho but its a dead coyote none the less.

    thank you too polish! that website looks like a goldmine of knowledge there! checking them out right now! and once again, no worries about me over loading a shell. im not trying to make a 325grain bullet move at 2500fps or anything like that!
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2011
  10. polishshooter

    polishshooter Active Member

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    A Smart guy told me when I told him I probably shouldn't have even take the shot at such a long range for my shotgun at my big buck I got this year that also involved a little luck that there are two rules to remember if you hunt, #1 that you cannot kill without taking the shot, and #2 NEVER apologize for MAKING the shot no matter how difficult it was! :)
  11. polishshooter

    polishshooter Active Member

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    Yeah, focus, I recommend it for anybody that SHOOTS a shotgun even if they don't load for it, you just can't stop LEARNING from them. Plus I have used a lot of their esoteric stuff you can't get anywhere else like the gas seals and teflon wraps and buffers and cardboard wads etc etc and the stuff WORKS just like they say it does! Plus if you notice they never give you a "sell job," they tell you what products they make WON'T work for your loads as much as what WILL.

    Get on their mailing list, I just got another email update from them just today in fact, and it keeps reminding me to check back and see what's new!:cool:
  12. Boris

    Boris Former Guest

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    focusmaniaczx3

    Its all good. My dad has been killing deer and all kinds of animals forever with plain ole Remington super soft 225 grain LSW. They are slow and soft and he has yet to have a problem with it. I have a 45LC/410 single shot with a 10" barrel. It is made in Argentina and it is only rated for standard psi 45s. I have yet to see a deer tough enough to withstand any non cowboy load. Critters just die real good when shot with real non +P 45LC ammo.

    FWIW I have tested every 410 buckshot and slug from mine and the Remingtons got a good wallop to them, but are worst for pattern. I got some Noble Sport 410 buckshot that has three 40 caliber pellets at 1200fps. Tightest pattern yet from any buckshot in my gun, might wanna try them out. A dealer at the Raliegh gunshow I go to has them all the time.

    HMS in Montana makes a great regular pressure 300 grain 45LC load that will penetrate like no other. Might want to try them out. Cheaper than dirt sell them. I also use Buffalo bore 255 hardcast loads that are standard pressure but hit real hard. They will go clean through a 400 pound blackbear.

    I have been in the 45LC/410 game for a loooong time and shot just about everything but the Winchester silvertip (because its pretty hard to find most the time lol). I have noticed deer drop right quick with anything but cowboyloads (I wont even use them, way too slow).

    I gotta get out and enjoy this nice day we are getting right now. Later my man!!
  13. bayhawk2

    bayhawk2 New Member

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    Focus-Yes you do come across as a #$%^.but that's o.k...I've found that
    these guys will try to help all they can.I find that I can see past the non
    issue post and stick to just the ones that are important to me.I tried
    to answer your question best I could.
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2011
  14. deen_ad

    deen_ad New Member

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    Hornady is supposed to have it's Critical Defense loads available this year. Right now I have the PDX1 and Hornady LEVERACTION loads. I have the Public Defender model with Rosewood grips (at least till CT makes a laser grip for it). Makes a great car gun and just fits the console (Yes I do have concealed weapons permits for WA and OR) so I can carry it there!
  15. hunter29180

    hunter29180 Active Member

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    Tarus will say DO NOT USE BUFFALO BORE AMMO IN ANY JUDGE NOT RATED AS A MAGNUM!!

    I did get them to admit it was ok to use any "standard" 45 load up to the same MF as the Federal Priemum .410 handgun ammo, which is at 1200 fps. in looking at the reload tables for trailboss powder the max pressur shown for the 45lc is 9400psi with a mv of 935fps. for a deer load it was recommended
    a 250 gn cast LRNFP over 4.5gn trailboss, max range about 40 ft?
    of course the max distance you can get good penetration from will depend on your barrel length..mine is 4" and i hit 3-4' groups out to 60'.but wouldnt shoot a deer at more than 40' recommend the 6" min length or go to the 454/410 model..then you can load the 45lc to the 44 mag potentual or use the 454 itself!
  16. Boris

    Boris Former Guest

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    The buffalo bore I am talking about is the standard pressure 255 Kieth hard cast loads. They are safe to shoot in any 45LC.