Home Defense for New Shooter

Discussion in 'Self Defense Tactics & Weapons' started by brewcityc, Dec 13, 2006.

  1. stash247

    stash247 New Member

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    Pistol, I'm late, of course in responding, but, in answer to your questiom of 12-17-06, I use the cheapest 7 1/2's, 8's, or 9's, available locally!
    Sounds strange, I know, but hear the whole story; whether you are dumping an ounce and a quarter of 00 Buck, or the same ounce and a quarter, of nines, the energy is the same, on the receiving end, and the jury , should it get to that, can hang their hat on a 'sporting use' explanation, far easier than on ammo designed for nothing but anti-pessonnel kind of work. Given, the results are about the same, if on target, and the damage, or potential damage, from over-penetraation, in the case of a miss, is so much less, I see no other course of action!
    If I cannot 'Make the threat go away', with 5 rounds of #9 skeet loads, inside a house, my a** is already toast, and I guess I'll give 'em the shotgun, too!
    Having 'dumped' a 300# Black bear, and a couple of 400#+ hogs, with such gear, I will take my chances, with a human, in the dark, with no reservation, as to ammo; at 15 feet, or less, and well placed, likely it would kill anything on earth.
    Desertram800: Please make yourself to home; we're a wierd bunch, but relatively friendly, and harmless, unless aroused! Welcome!
  2. Stash, I don't disagree with your reasoning at all. Physics is physics, and 1 1/4 oz. (or 1 1/8) of shot, no matter what the shot size. is still over an ounce of lead and contains the same potential energy! In fact, after doing some research on my own, I've reached the same conclusion about in-house loads that you have and settled on skeet loads containing #8s. One advantage to them also is that recoil is lessened a bit, which doesn't matter to me, but my wife finds them easier to handle. I still load two #4 bucks at the bottom of the tube, just in case the party gets lively at a distance, but the first five are now #8s.
  3. stash247

    stash247 New Member

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    [QUOTE=Pistolenschutze, I've reached the same conclusion about in-house loads that you have and settled on skeet loads containing #8s. One advantage to them also is that recoil is lessened a bit,
    Yup! Chest high hits on a level IIA vest wont penetrate the vest, but, likely will still break a rib or two, and totally stop forward progress, for a bit.
    There are drugs that render humans almost superhuman strength, and tolerance to pain. In a 'worst case' facing such an attacker, my suggestion would be the same one we adopted, many years ago, on some pretty rough dirt race tracks, "If you can't close the trrottle, turn off the ignition": raise the point of aim from the powerplant, to the control room, and stop shooting when the threat goes away.
    At fifteen feet or less, normal to long for indoor confrontations, a lod of 9's behaves like a slug until it meets resistance, then becomes a ER Surgeon's worst nightmare, because it will take all night.
    The conceptual difficulty in making a sound choice arises out of the omission of the thought that a 'house gun' may have to be employed by other than myself, perhaps one less trained, or smaller, weaker, in defense of my 'out of action' a**!
    This is the motive, above all other, for my choice- the easiest to learn, most effective and best retained weapon I can find, useable by all in the home, effectively.
    Over the years, I've broken three stocks on the 37's; twice in the Military, once later, but every time a life or two was saved, rather than taken.
    I don't know of a pistol on earth that serves as such a superb 'impact weapon'
    Just some random thoughts on "How it works"; feel free to accept, deny, or kick them about, as you wish, remembering always the best dicisions come from the most, and best, information.
    Terry
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2007
  4. 45Smashemflat

    45Smashemflat New Member

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    "Butt Stroke and Pary Series, READY!!!!!!"

    Ain't cracked a synthetic across a noggin yet, but if someone is still resistive after cracking a piece of black walnut over their gourd..... I guess that makes technically a LTL weapon, right?
  5. stash247

    stash247 New Member

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    I choose to leave all options 'open', until the fat lady sings; I can fix a broke stock, easier, and cheaper, than repairing a person, my choice, of course, prepared for in advance. Stocks are cheap, compared to cranial surgeons, so I will hold my ground, here!
  6. obxned

    obxned New Member

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    Maverick 88 pump shotgun. It's about the lowest price, totally reliable, and it will do the job! I would use the low recoil 00 2 3/4" loads, and either 12 or 20 guage would be fine.
  7. martbo

    martbo New Member

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    Congratulations on the baby.

    Now to inject another bite to chew on. My wife's home defense is a .38 revolver with a laser site. It is a bit unnerving to see the red dot on your chest. We also took a cheap laser pen from WallyWorld and duct taped it to the barrel of our pump shotgun. In our case, the laser is only for looks but the person staring at the business end of a 12 guage only sees the Lincoln tunnel and a red light.
  8. stash247

    stash247 New Member

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    Martbo, why the question? I am 58 y/o, 155#, and never been bigger; If I tell you, in a manner that you believe, that I am gonna cut off your whatever, and shove it down your wherever, and you buy in, I win, as I own your mind, at the point you 'bought in'!
    If you, or your wife, can convince a potential 'dead guy' without firing a shot, to 'go away, and bother someone else', this is where you want to be, exactly!
    Bro, the problems start when the shooting stops, unless you live in the country, and have a back hoe.
    If the bad guy 'get's it', and most will, with the 'little red dot', you are way ahead of the game!
    My personal choice, see General Discussion, has a tail, and an appetite, but lets me know, way early, should something be wrong in Smallville, and takes the initial defensive action, without a word!
    Personally, 'home defense' ought to be a canine subject, IMHO, I will raise a shotgun, or a rifle, given the time, to defend my dogs, and even use a pistol, on short notice, but the dogs are smarter, and more alert, than the bad guys, again, IMHO.
  9. clmanges

    clmanges New Member

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    Sorry, but this is incorrect. The mistake is in thinking that a given muzzle energy delivers the same damage regardless of how it's distributed. Think instead, of each pellet as a separate bullet. At a given velocity, a bigger pellet carries more weight, thus more energy, than a smaller one, by the simple equation:
    F=MV
    Force
    Mass
    Velocity
    In smaller sizes of buckshot, the aggregate force of the load will be the same, but it will be divided by the number of pellets in the load. Fewer pellets, more energy in each one.

    Check out this really cool website for more:

    http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm
  10. clmanges

    clmanges New Member

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    Aha! Further searching of the Box O' Truth site finally got me to the one I wanted -- here:

    http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot35_2.htm

  11. stash247

    stash247 New Member

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  12. clmanges

    clmanges New Member

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    You're halfway there, Stash. Now, to get the rest of the way there, substitute an ounce and a quarter of talcum powder. Does that still have the same energy? It's still an ounce and a quarter, isn't it?
  13. stash247

    stash247 New Member

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    Grasshopper, you are not listening!
    If I shoved a 12 gauge, up against your belly, with an ounce and a quarter of talcum powder, say, 2 " below your navel, you would never make it to the hospital,with a pulse!
    You are correct, that in this extreme case, there would be extreme velocity loss, at even a short distance from the muzzle, due to projectile density.
    A 'contact wound' with such a load, would not be survivable, given good aplication, of even such a round.
    Same internal balliastics, different, out of the barrel, but the 'worst case' scenario, were I on the receiving end, IMHO!
    This is an esoteic digression, from the topic, but having dealt with hundreds of 'gunshot wound victims', I feel qualified to reply.
    Sure, you can lower the mass, increase the loss of velocity, even at 15 feet, to a huge change in energy; obviate that factor, by making it a 'contact wound' shooting, and you are still a 'dead player'.
    My original post is valid; ask the survivors!
  14. martbo

    martbo New Member

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    Stash, my comments weren't a question. I was trying to make a statement and didn't write as well as it sounded in my head. But, you made the statement far better than I could. THANKS.
  15. stash247

    stash247 New Member

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    Matrbo, Lil Bro, I did not take it for a question; My point, exactly, was, that once I control your mind, I own your A**!
    I'm not real big, but years ago, when I healed some quicker, I closed a lot of bars with fights in which I spotted somebody else a hundred pounds, or more, and walked away.
    In such a circumstance, I'll talk about your Momma, your sister, your girlfriend, wife, or both, just to get you really 'riled up', at which point you lose perspective, from anger> adrenaline, and get real 'Stoopid'!
    The same point goes for the laser, but it is a far better, less destructive approach, hopefully saving the expense of ammo, and defense, later.
    I took your suggestion a bit further, true enough, but it was your idea, and a damned fine one!
    If your 'Goblin' has an ounce of sense, a shotgun, and a laser dot, ought to spell 'Lights out' for him, at which point, he can retreat, or die; the choice is his, but, at least, you have given him every opportunity to live!
    And yourself, a very reasonable excuse for shooting, should it ever come to court!
    EXCELLENT LOGIC!!!
  16. bdfinst

    bdfinst New Member

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    Clmanges is right. I've spent years on various firearms forums listening to gun urban legends. Finally theboxotruth.com came along to be the mythbusters of guns. Thank God.

    Yes, if you hold a 12 guage full of sand against someone's belly and pull the trigger, he won't feel very well in the morning (the same would be true if you were firing blanks), but the odds of that shot are pretty slim. How do you keep him from gaining control of the muzzle?

    While 1.5 oz of #7 has the same mass as 1.5 oz of 00 buck, the energy of the #7 drops off significantly after leaving the barrel. Assuming the same amount of powder and same total shot weight, the #7 and the 00 will have the same muzzle velocity, however, each #7 pellet weighs significantly less than a 00 pellet. The formula for kenetic energy is Energy = 1/2 Mass x Velocity squared. So, energy drops in proportion to the mass.
    Common sense bears this out as well. You would never think of using a 115 grain load of snake shot for personal defence, while a 115gr 9mm is perfectly acceptable. You also wouldn't use #7 bird shot for deer hunting because it doesn't penetrate far enough to reach the vitals in a large animal (i.e. man).

    Never use a load for personal defense that is less effective that a deer load.

    To those who think you can be sloppy with aiming a shotgun, I'd advise you to go pattern your gun at defensive ranges. You might be surprised.

    For years, I've heard about the over penetration issue with rifle rounds. According to the testing done at BOT, a 45 ACP will penetrate through 12 sheets of sheetrock. That's the equivalent of 6 walls. Since it appears that handgun ammo is just as effective at penetrating all the way through my house as a rifle and based on the testing on shotguns at BOT, I'm switching from my Kahr 40 to a shotgun for the bedroom. I'd encourage everyone to read the following tests before making a decision on home defense.

    http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm
    http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

    Bryan
  17. gunlearner

    gunlearner New Member

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    really i think a 16 or a 410 would do the trick
    first the 12 gage is to big for her get her started with a 410 and work you way up
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2007
  18. bdfinst

    bdfinst New Member

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    16 is nice. 12 isn't bad if you get an auto. I would think that 410 might not hold enough shot.
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