How Lethal Is A .22 ???

Discussion in '.22-Rimfire Forum' started by RunningOnMT, Jul 25, 2012.

  1. 3/2 STA SS

    3/2 STA SS Active Member

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    I was just looking at the same gun book today...They don't mess around overseas...they would shoot protesters with it for throwing rocks.
  2. Twicepop

    Twicepop Member

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    They still haven't explained how some nobody with a seven shot cheepo revolver was able to put nine rounds into him. Nor how, from a frontal attack two of these shots were in the back of his head, quite strange....eh.


    those who beat their guns into plowshares, will plow for those who didn't
  3. 3/2 STA SS

    3/2 STA SS Active Member

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    If you want to look into strange deaths look at Bill Clinton and how those persons died in Arkansas....really....you were able to cut off your own head with a circular saw?
  4. Twicepop

    Twicepop Member

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    That is only three of the 45 mysterious deaths of people that got in their way.


    those who beat their guns into plowshares, will plow for those who didn't
  5. CJ_56

    CJ_56 New Member

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    Every time someone asks this question I point them to this video where a man empties two .22 revolvers point blank shooting at his lawyer. The lawyer lived. Is that the caliber of gun you want for self defense? Not me.

    I saw a lot of people saying a .22 is a viable defense round in this thread before I stopped reading the comments. They're wrong. A .22 can certainly kill "if" you hit someone in the right spot. But hitting someone in the right spot is not nearly as easy as all that unless you're shooting at someone that isn't expecting to be shot. Most home invaders, criminal types, etc. are ready for a confrontation and won't be a sitting duck type target. That leaves you trying to hit a concealed and covered target and / or a moving target. The video tells you exactly what you need to know. The lawyer was shot in the neck and lived. I have a hard time believing that would have turned out the same if the guy had a .45. Yes you might still kill them or stop them with one shot of .22 LR. But a larger round has a MUCH better chance of doing the job you want done. That lawyer was shot FIVE times in the face and the upper body. That's exactly where you would try to shoot him. He walked away from it. No way he does that if the gun is a .45. Not a chance.

    Every expert in the world will tell you this. They don't just say it for fun. It's true. I know people who were shot in the head with a .22 and the bullet followed the bone alright - right around their skull and out the other side with nothing more than a cut on his head and it wasn't even that bad. He never had the slightest problem with being shot in the head. Think about what I'm saying here. He was shot in what is considered to be the most lethal spot and he barely noticed it. It's not like his life was saved by heroic efforts at the hospital either. None of his wounds were life threatening. None.

    A .22 will NOT do the damage of a larger caliber weapon like a .45 or a 9mm or a .40 caliber. It certainly won't do the damage of a centerfire rifle caliber from a .223 on up. It's not even close.

    And the idea of shooting multiple shots means you need to make multiple hits. The odds of that happening are slim. Remember Black Hawk Down? Those bad guys were being shot with .223 rounds and they kept on fighting because they were so stoned they didn't know they were hurt bad. Most people in a gun battle will quit when they see they are seriously hurt. They don't want to die. But drunks in a stupor, PCP blasted dopers, crack heads, etc. are often going to be just like those khat heads in Somalia. They won't even realize they're shot until you hit something vital that puts them down.

    If you want to be a hit man then yes a .22 can work well for you. If you want something to defend yourself and your family get a centerfire weapon with as much power as you can handle.

    There's a reason you don't see armies using .22's. Yes I know about how Israel used them to take out guards quietly. But that's one very limited example. If they were actually good for SD you'd see at least one country using them in their army. But no country does.

    I guess the question is "why" would you choose a .22 for self defense when clearly other calibers are far, far superior? It makes no sense to me at all.
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2012
  6. RunningOnMT

    RunningOnMT New Member

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    I don't think anyone here was advocating using a .22 for self defense. The thread had more to do with the potential lethality of a .22 LR. The video showing the penetration capability of the .22 @ even a rather long range makes me inclined to rethink my opinion of the potential of the caliber. Certainly, given the variety of calibers out there, it would seem rather foolish to choose a .22 for self defense. However, a .22 may be all someone owns. Would they be better off throwing it at an intruder? I think not.
  7. 3/2 STA SS

    3/2 STA SS Active Member

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    If thats all I had I am aiming at the skull/eyes/nose-anything to inside that skull.
  8. JLA

    JLA Well-Known Member

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    also gotta remember Black Hawk Down is a movie.. Things happen in hollywood that dont happen in real life. Kinda hard to not know youre hurt bad when a 55 gr bullet traveling 3300 fps enters your chest cavity and makes a smoothie of your vital organs.. Your body kinda dont have a choice but to shut down regardless of how much dope is coursing thru your bloodstream.
  9. Twicepop

    Twicepop Member

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    I just read a small piece about using a .22LR weapon for defensive purposes. The arcticle said that it is not a caliber that can be counted on as a stopping round, unless a head shot is made. It also said that those shot and not stopped go on as if nothing has happened to them, and then they just die rapidly. Shot placement is more important than what you shoot them with, a .22 or something larger. The .22 you have, is better that anything you don't.


    those who beat their guns into plowshares, will plow for those who didn't
  10. CJ_56

    CJ_56 New Member

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    I know the .22 is lethal. I was responding to people talking about using it for SD. For one thing the OP mentioned using it for SD in the first post. And posts #7 and #15 for example seem to suggest it's a choice for SD. Obviously it's better than a sharp stick. But is it better than a sharp knife? I'm not so sure. Maybe.

    I really don't mean to step on any toes. If I did I apologize. I just don't think anyone should be thinking a .22 is a good SD weapon. It's ok but a .45 ACP is a lot more ok. So is a 9mm or a .40 S&W. Those are the rounds chosen by our military and police to defend themselves and us. There's a reason they choose those calibers.

    BTW Black Hawk Down might be a movie but the representation of how those guys ignored wounds is well documented in all sorts of situations. Most people have seen examples personally. I have. I saw a guy with 8 cops taking him on that couldn't feel a thing as they went after him. He just kept on fighting. Obviously he had no chance but that didn't stop him. And a person in that kind of a stupor is very apt to ignore a small caliber wound. I just referenced the movie because most of us have seen it. But I could have mentioned how a near 70 year old ex-actor got shot in the chest with a .22 and didn't notice it for a good while. The bullet was very near his heart but he didn't even realize he had been shot. His name was Ronald Reagan.

    BTW just what is the point of wanting to know the "lethality" of a round if you're not going to use it for SD? The video has a ham wrapped up in jeans. I didn't know pigs wore Levi's. Or maybe it's a Murder For Dummies video. ;)

    Yes a .22 will most certainly kill "if" the right conditions are in play. If you stick a gun to the back of someone's skull and fire into their brain stem chances are they will die. You can kill a freaking walrus like that if you can catch one asleep so it won't squash you as you get behind it. But aside from SD I can't see any other reason for even asking this question. If there is one feel free to inform me. I understand curiosity is always in play but I would guess that wasn't the whole reason for this thread. I could be wrong. I doubt it.

    I just hope people understand that SD should be done with a bigger caliber. I consider the people on this board to be my friends and I wouldn't want bad things to happen to them. We all share an interest and usually a point of view. We need all the voters we can get come November too. So eat at Chick-fil-A liberals i.e. gangsters and dope heads are boycotting it so it will be safer there. And defend yourself with a proper weapon. In case you encounter a bad guy intent on robbing and killing you you'll likely take out a guy who would vote for the wrong team and you'll keep alive someone who will vote on our side. :D Bad joke I know but you get the point.
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2012
  11. Albtraum

    Albtraum Member

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    Kinda of funny..... I've seen threads on the lethality of 9mm and .380, and people's personal experience with them or stories... makes them sound inferior to the 22 rimfire.
  12. JLA

    JLA Well-Known Member

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    Id consider a .22 far better in a SD situation than a sharp knife.
  13. todd51

    todd51 Well-Known Member

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    Josh I have looked and I can't find it but back a while you tested several .22lr rounds and as I remember you were impressed with the Velocitor.
  14. JLA

    JLA Well-Known Member

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    No the CCI minimags. They were by far the best performers. The Velocitors came in a very close second. Only beat by the minimags in the expansion dept..

    The thread youre lookin for is here. It was way back in there.. :eek:
    http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/showthread.php?t=90400
  15. CJ_56

    CJ_56 New Member

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    In my CCW class they taught that a knife was better than a gun inside of 21 feet. They had a name for the rule. They called it the 21 foot rule but there's another name for it. It may be the Tueller Drill. I've seen that discussed many times. I have no idea why they even think that except that it may be they're talking about a knife that's already pulled and how fast a person can cover 21 feet. They seem to be claiming that a knife that's pulled can beat a gun that must be drawn and fired before the person gets cut.

    That's why I included that statement. I have no idea how true this rule really is but a person has to pull a knife too so the test seems to be unfairly set up. Still a person can draw a knife very quickly and it doesn't require aiming. Heck I don't know though. I haven't tried to stab anyone in 2 or 3 weeks at least. ;)

    I do know that a person can cover 21 feet VERY quickly if the person is still young and still have their legs. 7 yards is a common distance for a football formation and if you played high school football you'll know some people can cover that distance very fast. Heck I got to the QB once and he handed me the ball instead of handing it to his halfback. He didn't know he was going to. He just stuck it out waiting for his halfback and I ran through and grabbed it like it was a handoff to me and scored a TD. It was funny as heck but that would have been about 7 yards from where I was to where I got the ball from the QB.

    If anyone went to Fairview High School near Ashland Kentucky in the early 1970's you might have seen me do that. I laughed all the way to the end zone which probably ticked off the other team but I just couldn't help it. :)

    A young and quick person can cover 21 feet very fast. Keep in mind that some people can run 100 yards in 9 seconds (not me ever) so that's pretty quick to just 7 yards. We're talking about 3/4th of a second or so. Maybe a whole second. If you aren't ready or you have your gun snapped in that is a short time to pull your gun.
  16. todd51

    todd51 Well-Known Member

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    Yep, that was the thread. It was a great one, thanks.
  17. Albtraum

    Albtraum Member

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    This all sounds right, but let's say you have your knife ready and get to your target before their gun is ready. Getting to them doesn't end anything, that's just the start of the fight. There's also the chance of them apprehending your knife. But let's say it worked out as planned and you lunge your blade into the opponent... will that immediately end the fight? Nope. People aren't that fragile, and don't bleed fast enough...
  18. RunningOnMT

    RunningOnMT New Member

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    Now, here's what I think. While I wouldn't carry a .22 as a primary carry weapon, I think a semi auto .22 like a 10/22 could be an effective sd weapon in the home. I could pump 10 rds into a burgler's gut so fast he wouldn't know what hit him. I'm not going to, because I have other weapons at my disposal, but if that's all I had (trust me, lots of people only own a .22 rifle) I believe it would likely be up to the task.
  19. CJ_56

    CJ_56 New Member

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    I wouldn't think it would have to do with bleeding out. I would think it would be like the way they teach people to kill with a knife in the military. You need a knife that's long enough to go up under the rib cage and hit the heart and that will kill someone quick. But like I said, I'm not really sure about the details of that rule. I just know they taught us something about it in my CCW class and they didn't explain it very well. They just stated it as fact without telling what they really meant by "beats a gun". I've never even seen a good explanation on the net about it either. People talk about the rule but no one gives the details. Maybe they're like me and just don't know the details. Anyway that's why I said I didn't know if a .22 was better than a sharp knife. If we're talking machete size knives or bigger (swords) then a knife can be very effective. Remember Crocodile Dundee saying, "That's a knife"? If he could get to you with that thing before you could draw a .22 I wouldn't be at all sure who had the upper hand. Then there was the guy from the Magnificent Seven who threw knives. Yeah it was a movie but there was a time when throwing knives and other weapons was an effective way to fight. The guy in the movie could draw his knife and throw it and kill someone before they could pull their pistol and shoot in a gunfight style. Yeah it was a movie. I get that. But it could be possible. Some people can throw a knife very well. I've seen that done. And I'm talking pulling one right out of the sheath and throwing it all in one motion.

    Haven't we about covered this topic? I don't know which is better. I know I'd rather have the gun. But if I was standing right next to someone who had a gun in a holster that had a snap I might well be able to draw my assisted opening knife and use it before he could draw his gun and use it. My knife has a 4" blade and will open very fast. It's a Kershaw Blur with an S30V blade and I keep it "very" sharp. You could hurt someone pretty bad with a knife like that if you were the type that can get up close and personal and stab someone. I don't know that I could do that unless I was going to die and I knew it. Maybe not even then. It's a lot easier to pull a trigger than it is to stab someone they say. But that's something else I've just heard. I haven't done that either.

    I don't doubt that you can shoot quickly but hitting someone that many times is not a given if they're moving and they know something about avoiding being shot. Watch the video of the lawyer that I linked to above. A guy was shooting at him point blank and missed about 3/4 of the time because the guy was moving when he aimed the gun. And that guy was using pistols, which are much faster to point and aim than a rifle especially inside a house. And again, the lawyer did get hit 5 times in what would be considered a vital area but he didn't die or even go down.

    Yes a .22 is better than nothing. But some people choose to use a .22 for SD and that's a mistake. Those are the people I'm talking to. I've seen a lot of posts where people think their 10/22 will be effective and I don't think that's a good thing to think or to tell to others. Obviously you're free to think what you want but I think that's a dangerous thing to think especially for someone new to shooting. Just because you might hit someone 10 times quickly that doesn't mean some newbie will and trust me they will read a thread like this and believe their 10/22 is a battle rifle and that just isn't the case. Some people dress their 10/22's up to look like battle rifles and they are certainly not that. They are great for hunting and for varmints etc. and I know they used to kill animals with a .22 when they were sent to the slaughterhouse. But a .22 LR is not all that effective as a SD weapon compared to larger caliber weapons. That's all I'm saying and I've said it enough now. Again I would just warn people that counting on a .22 for SD is a mistake and I think pretty much everyone here would agree with that. A shotgun is a good SD weapon. A .22 isn't.
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2012
  20. RunningOnMT

    RunningOnMT New Member

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    Either you misunderstood or your CCW instructor was an idiot. Unless you have considerable experience or that's your only choice, using a knife for sd is a very bad idea. To say that a knife is better than a gun inside 21 ft. is absurd.

    Someone did a study on how many feet someone could cover in the time it takes the average LEO to draw his weapon. That turned out to be an average of 21 ft. So that has become a standard some departments use. Officers are trained not to let someone with a knife closer than 21 ft. Inside that range, you shoot. That is the 21 ft rule.

    For both the LEO and civilian it's become kind of a legal standard. If you shoot someone with a knife, who is further than 21 ft away, the question could arise as to whether shooting was justified.

    That's why people often shoot targets at 7 yds.
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