Discussion in 'The Constitutional & RKBA Forum' started by RunningOnMT, May 13, 2012.
Guess you won't be signing up................
Not unreasonable questions to ask, IMO
It's kind of like the BBB. I don't need to pay them money to prove I treat my customers the way I would want to be treated. I do it everyday for free.
Don't misunderstand, I like and fully support the idea behind Oathkeepers, but I am also trying to understand what they could actually accomplish if neccesary, primarily with their retired and civilian personel.
Obviously, Oathkeepers who are active duty military and law enforcement could have a real world impact.
It was previously implied that it was bad form to ask these questions. I disagree. These are serious times, and some of us have limited time/resources to give due to family raising. I know I want my free time/hard earned money to be where I can do the most good.
I think solid organizations can stand up to reasonable questions or scrutiny.
It's called Oath Keepers, even retirees and reserves can Keep their Oath the oath isn't untaken when you retire , these men and women stood before the flag of these United States and said they would protect it from ALL enemies , if some jack booted thug comes to your door wouldn't you rather have some retired military or police or a non active duty member who has sworn to Keep his/her Oath of duty to you and me and this Country around ? We The People have the Right to fight back against corruption , the second amendment wasn't about squirrel hunting
Why? Is it because you don't like my questions, or is it because you take the Billy Badass nomenclature personally? Is there a reason you won't explain why I should send them my money and put my name on a list? I really would like to know why you think it makes sense.
The whole idea behind the organization is the statement that you will not follow illegal orders. Right? I mean it says so right on their home page. So again MT, what freakin orders will retirees, veterans, or fireman (serving or former) receive that they will have to disobey to uphold their oath? Absolutely none. Thats the whole idea of being retired or former, your not going to be getting any more orders(except the wifes and I dont think those count). So whats the point?
So like I stated for those individuals its all about the warm fuzzy feeling you get by putting the sticker on your truck. Your giving someone (who?) money (a good bit and for what?) for a sticker professing professing that you will uphold your oath by making a statement that you cant possibly break. Those that are sworn and that will receive orders are the only ones that this means anything for, and we know what we will do and what those around us will do without having a sticker in the window or being on a list.
I'd suggest you back off a bit. If you don't like the organization or its goals, don't join. You certainly don't know my reasons for joining but seem to think it's for some "badass" reason. And I'm not going to spend thousands of key strokes letting you know my reasons. Seems obvious to others.
So, don't join and move on.
HD, I fully understand the oath taken, the implications and length of term implied by that oath, and what the organization is called. Read their "Declaration of orders we will not follow". Now how does that declaration apply to retirees, Vets, or Firemen? As I pointed out above it doesn't. They do not and will not receive orders that they will have to disobey. My question is why on earth would any of them send money to this organization? What are their benefits of membership? What is the money used for? And do you really believe that someone sending this organization money means they, more than anyone else will stand to protect you? My personal experience has shown me that those who profess the most perform the least.
What do you have against your so called Jack Booted Thugs? Do you believe all Feds are such (assuming thats who you mean, thats generally the implication)? Almost everyone of them I know (and thats not a small number)are truly stand up people. They do what they do because of what they believe in. It surely isn't for the money, it's not that great.
Because some of us at one time took an oath to protect and defend the constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic, and we consider it to have been a lifetime commitment. True, we veterans wont be subject to orders to violate that oath but we stand ready to join with others who will. I didn't fight for freedom on foreign soil only to have enemies among us here at home shred that document.
Oath Keepers has been around for awhile now and has among it's members many good people, both currently serving and veterans, as evidenced by some of the responses on this thread. An organization such as this may be our last line of defense against those who are posing an ever increasing threat to our republic. If the time comes, I want to be joining with principled people to assume a role in that defense, not racist militias, black panthers, the KKK, or marxists. Honestly, I don't know the details of how the membership fees are spent, but neither do I know how my NRA membership fees are spent, or my donations to various charitable organizations. If you really want to know, why don't you email them and ask?
As to why I hesitated to answer your question, it was because of your attitude and condescending tone which was quite obvious. I don't have to explain myself to anyone, particularly someone that doesn't get it. You didn't truly want to know, rather you wanted to debate the value of an organization that you feel is frivolous. Just call me Billy Bad Ass and let it go. I wont play.
You suggest I back off? That kinda sounds like a threat. Is it?
Im simply asking why people think this is beneficial to Non Currents, what the money is used for, who has access to these lists of members(see below), are members vetted in some form or another(have to give a badge number and agency or Mil ID) to be a full memeber. Some forums I belong to do require that info just so you know people are who they say they are. I fully agree with upholding your oath. An oath sworn, is not a small thing. Just explain how the "Declaration" applies to Non Currents. As for "Currents"(for lack of a better word to encompass everyone), I understand the how the "Declaration" applies and the meaning behind it, but why during this administration or any other for that matter, would you want to put your career on the line by joining an organization that could at anytime be considered subversive (if its not already these days who knows), thus jeopardizing a 5 year check (Fed and Mil with clearances) or whatever ongoing background local LEOs may have to deal with? Not to suggest you should hide your beliefs in fear but what are positives? I know where I stand, those who tell me what to do know where I stand, and what I will or wont do. I've lost a position because I would not follow an unlawful directive, have you?
As for the Billy Badass comment, if you seem to think its aimed at you, well, thats on you.
Actually I do want to know. You started a post suggesting people join an organization. You gave very vague reasons such as networking with like minded people, then posted their declaration. Since your backing them I dont think its out of line to be questioned as to why you think people should join and send them money. Apparently other members above agree with me. I for one consider many things before I send anyone my money. Especially an internet organization. How do you know its not an Al-Queda front? Im not saying or implying it is, Im just making a point. Have you actually verified that the many "good people" really are members or are they just screen names? I can pull pics from all over the web put names with them create a web site and ask for money too, but I wouldnt suggest anyone send me any, cause I will just use it for nefarious schemes like making spud guns or other such fun nonsense. You say you dont know how the NRA or charities that you give money to spend it, then why do you give it to them? I dont know what exactly my particular dollars are being spent on, but I know that when I give to St. Judes that my money is being spent to cover medical costs for children so there families can worry about everything else. I know that when I give money to the NRA my money is supposed to be being used to support the 2nd Amendment. I know when I give my money to my Vet, its being used to help treat animals that are brought in that may not recieve care, and so on and so on. What does "OK" spend your dues on? All over their site I see links to Donate to support their advance. What are they advancing? They say they are growing in number, thats great, for what? Whats their goal, to give you a place to state that you will uphold your oath. Good for you, I made that statement when I took my oath, I dont need to say it again for any reason. They say on a couple of pages what they wont do and what they are not, but not what they do.
Im not telling anyone they shouldnt join, Im saying people should think about what there joining, and Im asking you why you think we should.
As for the attitude and condescension, thats a little harsh, the Billy Badass comment was more of a dramatic comparison to any number of other organizations that ask for money and offer a lot of hype and fluff and uber patriotism but not a whole lot real substance. The rest were just questions, take em as you will.
In my experience, most online forums don't like new members getting "uppity" right off the bat. I don't think you're allowed to discuss anything controversial, or voice a different opinion from the forum hardline, until you've "paid your dues".
mb1, I re-read your posts and saw nothing disrepectful, condecending, or inappropriate. You asked tough questions for sure, but they were no different than the hard questions you might ask before putting your hard earned money and valuable time into something like new home, or signing up for service, etc.
I too am considering Oathkeepers, but I want to put my efforts into something where I can make a difference. These are serious times. I want to be more involved than just signing a check, and sewing on a patch. But it seems far easier to ruffle feathers than get straight foward answers to tough but neccesary questions.
For the record, I am a relatively new guy with no stature here, and what I think carrys zero weight. I just think mb1 questions were perceived differently than intended, and judged incorrectly.
What if Eric holder gets a wild hair and confiscates the member list, then attempts to try each for treason. Call me crazy, but thats why I don't want my name on there. I don't trust anybody, but me. I guess its the way the system chewed me up before.
You're here. He has your name already.....
Jedwill, you are probably right and he probably has my house wired. I think I'm going to tell him what I think of him right now. I'll be back in a minute.
I'll just buy $40.00 of ammo.
Sounds like a good, long term solution to me........
Separate names with a comma.